Topic by Stephen_Doonan

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Topic: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

For any particular combination, if a stop, coupler or tremulant is set to "none" in Settings-->Combination, that setting is overwritten with an "On" or "Off" when the combination is recorded/saved in the Organteq main window using the "Set" or "Snapshot" functions.

This can cause confusion when a user specifically wants a particular stop or stops, one or more couplers, and/or one or more tremulant switches to be ignored and their current state NOT recorded or saved (because the user has set those items to "none" in Settings-->Combination) when that combination is set or saved using the "Set" button or right-click-->Snapshot functions, because if a combination is saved with "On" or "Off" information, and that combination is later selected during normal use of Organteq, it's settings will persist for any subsequently-selected combination's stops, couplers or tremulant switches that had been set to "none" in Settings-->Combination. Therefore, a user whose intent was (for example) to set the couplers and tremulants manually at all times would have their intent defeated by the behavior of the Set and Snapshot functions, which would change any "none" to "On" or "Off" any time a particular combination is saved.

Of course, if the "Set" and "Snapshot" functions WERE to check whether a stop, coupler or tremulant were already set to "none," and then ignore those items when saving the combination (retaining those items' "none" status in Settings-->Combination, that behavior might be confusing to a user who wonders why the changes he has made to stops, couplers or tremulants has NOT been saved when they use Set or Snapshot to save the combination, if they are unaware of or have forgotten that those items had previously been set to "none" in Settings-->Combination.

One solution I can think of (others may have better ideas) is to be able to toggle this behavior in a user preference, so that either: the current state of the main Organteq window has precedence, overriding and overwriting any "none" that may exist in Settings-->Combination for the combination being saved, or: the Settings-->Combination has precedence with respect to the "none" setting for any particular item, so that "none" is not changed to either "on" or "off" by using the Set button or right-click-->Snapshot.

Options-->General
Overwrite "none" with "On" or "Off" when saving combinations? No<-->Yes

Ideas?

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (10-10-2023 21:11)
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Reply by Pat

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

For any particular combination, if a stop, coupler or tremulant is set to "none" in Settings-->Combination, that setting is overwritten with an "On" or "Off" when the combination is recorded/saved in the Organteq main window using the "Set" or "Snapshot" functions.

This can cause confusion when a user specifically wants a particular stop or stops, one or more couplers, and/or one or more tremulant switches to be ignored and their current state NOT recorded or saved (because the user has set those items to "none" in Settings-->Combination) when that combination is set or saved using the "Set" button or right-click-->Snapshot functions, because if one combination has been saved with "On" or "Off" information, and that combination is later selected, it affects the on/off state of items in subsequently-selected combinations that had been set to "none." Therefore, a user whose intent was (for example) to set the couplers and tremulants manually all the time would have their intent defeated by the behavior of the Set and Snapshot functions, which would change any "none" to "On" or "Off" any time a particular combination is saved.

Of course, if the "Set" and "Snapshot" functions WERE to check whether a stop, coupler or tremulant were already set to "none," and then ignore those items when saving the combination (retaining those items' "none" status in Settings-->Combination, that behavior might be confusing to a user who wonders why the changes he has made to stops, couplers or tremulants has NOT been saved when they use Set or Snapshot to save the combination, if they are unaware of or have forgotten that those items had previously been set to "none" in Settings-->Combination.

One solution I can think of (others may have better ideas) is to be able to toggle this behavior in a user preference, either: giving the current state of the main Organteq window precedence, overriding and overwriting any "none" that may exist in Settings-->Combination for the combination being saved, or: giving Settings-->Combination preference with respect to the "none" setting for any particular item, and not changing that item to either "on" or "off" according to its current state in the main window.

Options-->General
Overwrite "none" with "On" or "Off" when saving combinations? No<-->Yes

Ideas?

I had already asked myself these questions.
Both variants have advantages and disadvantages.
The main disadvantage is the lack of transparency when saving, as you cannot see from the main window what status ("on"/"off" or "none") the individual controls of a combination have.
If you want to save the current organ setting with all its details on a new bank-combination number, it can lead to confusion if this combination previously contained "none"-elements and these are not overwritten, although you would expect them to be.

Personally, I also see great advantages if "none"-elements (or entire "none"-areas) retain their previous configuration when saving a combination.
In this way you could create "division-specific" combinations that, for example, only address the Hauptwerk or only the pedal and leave the other manuals unchanged.
We had already discussed the situation specifically with monophonic couplers in the other thread.

Reply by tmyoung

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

I second the idea that "none" should retain its status by default.  I think that would likely be the most elegant solution to the issues raised in this and the other thread.

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Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

Just an idea--

When enabled/turned-on, write current state of couplers and/or tremulants to combination when saved with Set button or right-click-->Snapshot.
When disabled/turned-off, set or overwrite coupler and/or tremulant states in Settings-->Combination to "none."

https://i.imgur.com/soNV1dp.jpeg

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (11-10-2023 01:08)
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Reply by lewisalexander2020

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

Just an idea--

When enabled/turned-on, write current state of couplers and/or tremulants to combination when saved with Set button or right-click-->Snapshot.
When disabled/turned-off, set or overwrite coupler and/or tremulant states in Settings-->Combination to "none."

https://i.imgur.com/soNV1dp.jpeg

that would sound like a good idea to me. Although I'll chime in here with my own take on this...

We're relying on organteq 2 as we did with Organteq 1 where "General Pistons" are being treated as Combinations, so we have 10 combinations available to the GUI and with this, the way that memory set and recalls are used is by using the Combinations to store data for each change. This presents a problem and one I've discussed a few times.

If you compare Organteq against Hauptwerk as an example and no I'm not endorsing Hauptwerk here, but I'm sharing how Hauptwerk differs for the sequencer system. Hauptwerk gives users a full sequencer setup allowing General Pistons, divisional Pistons, , coupler and other functions to be set up independently, so you're not in a position like you are in Organteq where you're having to write changes to a combination and recall the combination, move to the next to create a combination with a small change or number of changes.

Ideally based on most modern consoles, we have the support of a sequencer supporting divisions and generals, so divisions supporting the 3 manuals and pedal cover the playing needs of the organist in question. so if you're preparing a service or concert, you set up your sequencer memory to hold a set of general pistons, then the set of divisionals for most of the workload and give yourself a little flexibility to manually add / change when the mood takes.

From my own perspective as a blind organist, Organteq 2 is stunning, it's accessible for nearly everything, with exception of "pipe per pipe" edit and the preset edit environment, but I expect it'll be fixed in time, it's a question of finding the right methods but have given some feedback on this and some solutions. For me, navigating an organ is a tactile experience, organteq makes that a spoken experience, but the sequencer leaves me getting lost when I'm creating memory sets. The number of consoles I've performed with over the years, have all used divisional and general pistons for memory recall and a sequencer I can navigate fairly well depending on manufacturer, some are better than others. so having a sequencer in organteq that offers better flexibility is an important element. so supporting the creation of divisional pistons and general pistons would provide a more comfortable playing experience, but also a learning experience for student organists who need to understand how consoles behave and have a closer playing experience, regardless of how the GUI behaves, it's more to do with providing the experience of the functionality and compatibility.

lew

Blind Music Producer, Composer, pianist and Church Organist. Accessibility development specialist for MacOS. Developing a solution for blind organists to have an accessible digital organ solution.

Reply by Pat

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

Stephen_Doonan wrote:

Just an idea--

When enabled/turned-on, write current state of couplers and/or tremulants to combination when saved with Set button or right-click-->Snapshot.
When disabled/turned-off, set or overwrite coupler and/or tremulant states in Settings-->Combination to "none."

My opinion on this:
I would also like it if you could set the behavior of the individual controls (either in groups or individually) when saving the combinations from the main interface.
By this I mean the decision as to whether the respective control element is included in the combination (status "on" or "off") or not (status "none").
However, the GUI should not be overloaded. I would not agree to the introduction of additional buttons for this purpose.
We also have to keep in mind that this function should also be accessible in the Jamb Views!

However, you could place this setting in the popup menu of the respective control element, which can be accessed via the right mouse button or a long left click.
In addition to the existing buttons, a new button "Include in Combination" (there is certainly a better name?) could be added, with which you could then switch between "active" (= on/off) and "inactive" (= none).

In order to be able to quickly see what status the control elements currently have, the "combination-active" elements could be highlighted in a suitable way when activating the "S" switch (e.g. provided with a frame, similar to the "outline focused item" option), or alternatively the "inactive" (none) elements are grayed out.

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

Pat wrote:

... However, the GUI should not be overloaded. I would not agree to the introduction of additional buttons for this purpose.
We also have to keep in mind that this function should also be accessible in the Jamb Views!

However, you could place this setting in the popup menu of the respective control element, which can be accessed via the right mouse button or a long left click.
In addition to the existing buttons, a new button "Include in Combination" (there is certainly a better name?) could be added, with which you could then switch between "active" (= on/off) and "inactive" (= none).

In order to be able to quickly see what status the control elements currently have, the "combination-active" elements could be highlighted in a suitable way when activating the "S" switch (e.g. provided with a frame, similar to the "outline focused item" option), or alternatively the "inactive" (none) elements are grayed out.

These ideas of yours seem like a better solution. To restate:

* The user chooses and sets whether a particular stop, coupler or tremulant-switch is "active." When saving a combination, an active element is recorded/saved/set to "On" or "Off") and an "inactive" element is set to "none" (ignore).

* The choice of active/inactive could be available/viewable/usable in the window that pops up when an element (stop, tremulant or coupler) is right-clicked.

* When the "Set" button is pressed, those elements that are "active" (with regard to their use within a combination) will be highlighted in some way so that a user has an immediate overview of which elements' on/off state will be saved with the combination, and which elements (the unhighlighted unes) will have their on/off/none state set to "none."

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (11-10-2023 19:09)
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Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

Perhaps a switch or button could be placed in Settings-->Combination which when engaged would protect and prevent any instance of "none" from being overwritten by the Set button or by right-click-->Snapshot in the main window.

Last edited by Stephen_Doonan (13-10-2023 06:47)
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Reply by Pat

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

In the new version 2.0.3, which was released today, Modartt has comprehensively addressed the problem.
On the Settings -> Combiination page you can now set how the different areas (Divisions / Tremulants / Couplers) are included in the combination storage (or not).

If the SET button is now activated, the stops, pedals or switches that are included in the storage are visually highlighted.
The controls that are not brightened get the "none" status in the combination.

Reply by Stephen_Doonan

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Re: Set and Snapshot do not respect "none" in Settings-->Combination

Pat wrote:

In the new version 2.0.3, which was released today, Modartt has comprehensively addressed the problem.
On the Settings -> Combiination page you can now set how the different areas (Divisions / Tremulants / Couplers) are included in the combination storage (or not).

If the SET button is now activated, the stops, pedals or switches that are included in the storage are visually highlighted.
The controls that are not brightened get the "none" status in the combination.

Yes, very nice. Thank you, Modartt team.

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