Topic: Organteq 2 Diapason Settings

What value does one set for the Diapason when playing across a range of Baroque and Classical organ music, let alone playing across an assortment of French, Flemish and German organs of differing centuries?

It is a "problem" that one would not be lucky enough to encounter in real life, but which one does encounter when utilising the vast range of possibilities of Organteq 2.

I came across the following article "La Question du Diapason" which covered the question in reasonable detail and which might be of some interest to other members of the Forum.

https://musebaroque.fr/instrument-diapason/

The relevant summary is the following

"Par convention, on admet généralement que :

Le diapason moderne est à 440 Hz.
Le diapason baroque français tourne autour de 392 Hz, assez grave.
Le diapason baroque anglais de la deuxième moitié du XVIIème siècle se rapproche de celui adopté par la France (influence stylistique).
Le diapason baroque italien est bas au Sud de la péninsule (diapason romain à 392 Hz) et s’élève au fur et à mesure que l’on remonte vers le Nord. La plus haute fréquence est celle de Venise, autour de 460 Hz.
Le diapason germanique et anglais du XVIIIème est fixé aux alentours de 415 Hz, tout comme le diapason du haut baroque de la première moitié du XVIIème. Cependant, le diapason d’église est un ton plus haut, vers 465 Hz."

or in translation, with the aid of Google Translate

"By convention, it is generally accepted that:

The modern tuning fork is 440 Hz.
The French baroque tuning fork runs around 392 Hz, quite low.
The English Baroque tone of the second half of the 17th century is close to that adopted by France (stylistic influence).
The Italian Baroque tuning fork is low in the south of the peninsula (Roman tuning fork at 392 Hz) and rises as we go north. The highest frequency is that of Venice, around 460 Hz.
The Germanic and English tuning fork from the 18th century is set at around 415 Hz, just like the high baroque tuning fork from the first half of the 17th century. However, the church pitch is a tone higher, around 465 Hz."

It is interesting to note that in Organteq 2 the diapason values for the "Historical : Alsacian Organ I (Strasbourg, St-Thomas)" and the "Historical : Royal Chapel (Versailles)" are already correctly set at 392 Hz and 415 Hz respectively.

This is, of course, the level of attention to detail that one has become accustomed to expect from all at Modartt.

It will save me from endless fiddling and configuration for which I am most grateful.

Michael

Last edited by mprimrose (28-09-2023 03:53)
Pianoteq 8 Studio plus all Instrument packs; Organteq 2; Debian; Reaper; Carla

Re: Organteq 2 Diapason Settings

Nice post!

Yes, from my research Baroque temperaments and diapason are absolutely all over the place!  I think it's very unfortunate whenever I see it oversimplified into a one-size-fits-all solution like A415 is Baroque tuning (especially with Equal Temperament).

I really like the variety and balance they chose between presets.  For example, while the actual Frieberg organ is a modernized Silbermann 1/6 comma at A476.3 (historically A473 with a Silberman 1/6 comma before the 20th century), I like having it set to Kirnberger III (as Silbermann 1/6 is something of an acquired taste) and the A470 is really close to 473/476 (and I think the ceiling of what OTQ2 can do).  https://www.freiberger-dom.de/en/concer...rmann.html & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4VYUUlCtcQ

Versailles is an interesting case, as the original organ was A390 or A392, based on the tuning fork found at Versailles, but when it was rebuilt and restored, the builders decided to set it to A415 but the restoration kept the "Temperament Ordinaire" of the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PENR9dH_yJ8 & https://www.hpschd.nu/tech/tmp/dalembert.html

It's also fascinating how much methodology influences temperament and tuning, as the way that an instrument was tuned before computers was--as any piano technician or organ tuner will tell you--done by counting beats and increasing or decreasing intervals to minimize various wolf-tones or sour harmonics.  Pythagorean and meantone commas are very easy to tune to--which is why they were typical of Renaissance music--because no "well-tempering" was done to reduce wolf tones around infrequently used tri-tones and within more exotic key signatures like C# major, B major or F# minor (or their enharmonic counterparts--though the sharp and flat keys aren't considered equivalent in terms of historic temperament in they usually are now with equal temperament).

If scales like C major were in order, then no further adjustments or "tempering" was needed.  As music became increasingly chromatic by the end of the Baroque era, more and more well-tempered and (eventually) equal-tempered scales and tuning methodologies were developed to allow playing in the more exotic portions of the circle of fifths (or more exotic modes)--particularly during the "development" sections of fugues and the early large-scale Classical music forms.  The downside to well-temperaments is that as you, for example, narrow a third in one key or mode, you are lowering the leading tone in another or as you increase the width of a third, you're adding a leading to a mode or scale that doesn't/shouldn't have one in that place.  So, you have a trade-off between sounding better in all keys but less exceptional in some keys--which wasn't to all musicians' tastes in the mid-Baroque, which is why meantone commas (like Silbermann's 1/6) persisted for decades alongside more and more newer well-temperaments.  To many tastes--even in the late-Baroque and early-Classical, the best music was still in the mathematically precise meantone commas with key signatures that favored that precision.

I'm reminded of when I was looking through the online copies of Isaac Newton's college notebooks made available by Cambridge during his music theory classes (back when music theory was considered high mathematics), where he lists "the 12 musical modes in theire order of gratefulnesse" (you would think it was "gracefulness" but no, it's clearly "gratefulness") and the order doesn't really match what we would list with modern tastes as the modes ranked from best to worst (Lydian, Ionian, Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Locrian!?, and five other Greek Tonoi that we don't consider among the seven diatonic modes--though for the sake of trivia his list continues--Bb Dorian, G# Low Hypolydian/Hypoaeolian, C# Low Lydian/Aeolian, F# Low Hypophrygian/Hypoiastian, and Eb Low Mixolydian/Hyperdorian). https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-ADD-04000/233

The ultimate solution was equal temperament, but it had the major disadvantage that while, on paper (and known in Europe as early as 1585 by Simon Stevin--a year after an independent discovery of it was published in China by Zhu Zaiyu 朱載堉), it made all intervals equal, nobody could create a simple method for tuning an entire instrument like an organ to that.  Only by the time of Neidhardt's work in the early eighteenth century was a method for (fairly) easily achieving equal temperament on an actual instrument conceived and published; however, it took a very long time for any method of tuning to equal temperament to be widely adopted--near the middle and end of the nineteenth century.

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