Topic: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Hi all,

Anyone have recommendations for a set of speakers, preferably under $1000, that give a nice experience when practicing and would also project over (say) a small restaurant/ cafe?

I think I need a subwoofer in that mix, thoughts?

Right now I practice with a set of Presonus E3.5 + the Roland RD88 built in speakers, using the RD88 as an audio interface, but I would like to treat myself to an upgrade someday (like if I learn all the ABRSM grade 1 pieces or something....)  I have a MOTU interface I can hook up if needed.

Tx!

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

In aid of your planning for amps and speakers for use at both home and gigs, it would be good to consider a few issues that distinguish the two cases:

1. Will you want stereo in both cases? Stereo requires more equipment to project into an audience, and attention to assure the L and R contributions to the stereo image blend well in all parts of the room. The near field type monitors that you use at home, with their close placement, blend easily because your ears are the only target for the stereo image. Mono may be a good choice for your gigs, but you may want to hear (monitor) stereo in your ears as you play.

2. How will you hear yourself as you play? When you project your sound into an audience, it will probably sound different to you at your keyboard location, and it will sound different in each room you play.  You will want the ability to EQ your main audience speakers to compensate for the reflections and absorbances that are unique to each particular room. Depending on the EQ applied, these corrected speakers could sound very weird to you, up close at your keyboard. If you are playing solo, this is particularly hard to ignore as you play. You will want a monitor, either IEMs or a small monitor speaker, to hear yourself with the clarity that you are used to at home.

3. What size rooms do you envision for practice and performance? In my opinion, it is unlikely that the same speakers you enjoy up close for practice in your home studio will work for projecting into an audience, but perhaps other forum members have some good ideas for this.

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

TimN wrote:

In aid of your planning for amps and speakers for use at both home and gigs, it would be good to consider a few issues that distinguish the two cases:

<SNIP, due my refining my question/>

3. What size rooms do you envision for practice and performance? In my opinion, it is unlikely that the same speakers you enjoy up close for practice in your home studio will work for projecting into an audience, but perhaps other forum members have some good ideas for this.

Wow, that's a lot of things I never even thought about...  I

I think I need to revise my question:  is there a good set of studio monitors, under $1000 US, that will be both really fun to use with solo (and someday ensemble) practice and in a pinch be good enough for a house concert / small cafe/ whatever (20 ish people in probably 300 sq ft)?

My studio is a small bedroom, about 120 sq ft (11 sq meter), the (big) garage is 725 sq ft (67 sq meter); that's about the range I would need to cover for the next couple of years.

I don't envision *really* performing for a number of years, if ever, but I definitely want to be able to host sing-along ish things and force my friends to listen to me.  Maybe band practice in the garage. Probably I can wait on a PA system and should look more at studio monitor ish things.

Thanks again, hope everyone weighs in.  I am especially interested in brand and spec recommendations, though it does seem that I have a lot to learn about live sound and that's great too....

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

These are normally sold as single speakers, unless specified as a pair. Obviously you will want a pair:

Genelec.
Small rooms are problematic in the bass try without subwoofers.
https://www.genelec.com/8030c

Last edited by Key Fumbler (10-06-2023 07:51)

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Key Fumbler wrote:

These are normally sold as single speakers, unless specified as a pair. Obviously you will want a pair:

Genelec.
Small rooms are problematic in the bass try without subwoofers.
https://www.genelec.com/8030c

Those are maybe too fancy but still quite appealing...

With the subwoofer is there any guidelines for room size?

For me the speaker set needs to be usable in a 400 square foot room as well, and compromises are fine.

Tx!

Last edited by wws (10-06-2023 17:57)

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

wws wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

These are normally sold as single speakers, unless specified as a pair. Obviously you will want a pair:

Genelec.
Small rooms are problematic in the bass try without subwoofers.
https://www.genelec.com/8030c

Those are maybe too fancy but still quite appealing...

With the subwoofer is there any guidelines for room size?

For me the speaker set needs to be usable in a 400 square foot room as well, and compromises are fine.

Tx!

Alternatively to satisfy both very different venues you could use a pair of Behringer "B2031a Truth" & a good sealed subwoofer or two.
In the bedroom you might not need to use the subwoofers as well as they might just give you too much bass.

The Behringer loudspeakers can work well if not squished up too close, or too close to side walls.
If you are practically on top of them they could be a bit overbearing/tiring.  Give them space to breathe I think you should be happy enough with them. So really depends on your room layout whether it's feasible. It's not a large loudspeaker by historic standards but currently people expect miniscule speakers to give them the impression of bass.

So depending on the layout that might be too much loudspeaker, or work well in your small room - if you can give them the space. They should be fine in the larger venue provided you don't need to drown out loud sounds as they're not a PA speaker.  They do have a small wave guide on the treble and a larger than average mid bass driver and will project quite well for a small/medium monitor.

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Key Fumbler wrote:

Alternatively to satisfy both very different venues you could use a pair of Behringer "B2031a Truth" & a good sealed subwoofer or two.
In the bedroom you might not need to use the subwoofers as well as they might just give you too much bass.

I am leaning to getting a lot of studio monitor (for me anyway) -- there are some sets w 5" pair and a subwoofer in my under 1000 range that look serviceable.  I just want a bigger sound when I practice and the option to have a friends and family recital in my living room.  Each 5" speaker in the sets came in at about 50 W, subwoofer at 100W -- not a perfect measure, but 200W can probable do the trick for me.

Thoughts??  Thanks again to everyone...

Last edited by wws (11-06-2023 20:04)

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

wws wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

Alternatively to satisfy both very different venues you could use a pair of Behringer "B2031a Truth" & a good sealed subwoofer or two.
In the bedroom you might not need to use the subwoofers as well as they might just give you too much bass.

I am leaning to getting a lot of studio monitor (for me anyway) -- there are some sets w 5" pair and a subwoofer in my under 1000 range that look serviceable.  I just want a bigger sound when I practice and the option to have a friends and family recital in my living room.  Each 5" speaker in the sets came in at about 50 W, subwoofer at 100W -- not a perfect measure, but 200W can probable do the trick for me.

Thoughts??  Thanks again to everyone...

a tiny (relatively quiet) restaurant or cafe will be okay with the 5 inch bass mids too. Anything more challenging in terms of background noise and you would want to look to bigger speakers.

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Key Fumbler wrote:

a tiny (relatively quiet) restaurant or cafe will be okay with the 5 inch bass mids too. Anything more challenging in terms of background noise and you would want to look to bigger speakers.

Thanks for the reply!

The next bigger bundle is 7" and 10" subwoofer, for a smidge under 1000. That's probably what I will get , though a little worried it's too much for my room.

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

wws wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

a tiny (relatively quiet) restaurant or cafe will be okay with the 5 inch bass mids too. Anything more challenging in terms of background noise and you would want to look to bigger speakers.

Thanks for the reply!

The next bigger bundle is 7" and 10" subwoofer, for a smidge under 1000. That's probably what I will get , though a little worried it's too much for my room.

It depends on the available positioning and EQ shelving built in to the active monitoring pair (the subwoofers also having this is a given).

5" drivers can have a pleasing impression of bass. It very much depends on the speaker design and the room acoustics, and your position relative to the speakers.  This is not an easy subject!

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Key Fumbler wrote:
wws wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:

a tiny (relatively quiet) restaurant or cafe will be okay with the 5 inch bass mids too. Anything more challenging in terms of background noise and you would want to look to bigger speakers.

Thanks for the reply!

The next bigger bundle is 7" and 10" subwoofer, for a smidge under 1000. That's probably what I will get , though a little worried it's too much for my room.

It depends on the available positioning and EQ shelving built in to the active monitoring pair (the subwoofers also having this is a given).

5" drivers can have a pleasing impression of bass. It very much depends on the speaker design and the room acoustics, and your position relative to the speakers.  This is not an easy subject!

Is there a good reference? I kind of like dry and full of math...

I am vaguely looking at the presonusc and krk 7" pairs. The presonus has three knobs for room tuning and the krk has a screen.

I like the idea of the 7" so that they have more overall power for that slightly bigger and noisier cafe;)

Thanks!

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

wws wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
wws wrote:

Thanks for the reply!

The next bigger bundle is 7" and 10" subwoofer, for a smidge under 1000. That's probably what I will get , though a little worried it's too much for my room.

It depends on the available positioning and EQ shelving built in to the active monitoring pair (the subwoofers also having this is a given).

5" drivers can have a pleasing impression of bass. It very much depends on the speaker design and the room acoustics, and your position relative to the speakers.  This is not an easy subject!

Is there a good reference? I kind of like dry and full of math...

I am vaguely looking at the presonusc and krk 7" pairs. The presonus has three knobs for room tuning and the krk has a screen.

I like the idea of the 7" so that they have more overall power for that slightly bigger and noisier cafe;)

Thanks!

At this stage I think you're better off getting a demo and having a listen to some options. Go to some music shops, or Hi-fi shops or both. After that arrange a home demo or three.

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

wws wrote:

Hi all,

Anyone have recommendations for a set of speakers, preferably under $1000, that give a nice experience when practicing and would also project over (say) a small restaurant/ cafe?

I think I need a subwoofer in that mix, thoughts?

Right now I practice with a set of Presonus E3.5 + the Roland RD88 built in speakers, using the RD88 as an audio interface, but I would like to treat myself to an upgrade someday (like if I learn all the ABRSM grade 1 pieces or something....)  I have a MOTU interface I can hook up if needed.

Tx!

Sorry. I'm late. TLDR get an cheap upright instead. Less complications.

First things first. Your room acoustics. Check if clapping causes echo. If not, you may need to treat the room. Very expensive
Second thing Speaker stands: Good speaker stands are massive, heavy and won't ring if you put metal on metal. Out of budget.
Third thing decoupling: Proper decoupling would be 4 sets of isoacoustics pucks for around 200-250$
Fourth thing: Good Speakers. Klasik 2020 for around 1000$ ... out of Budget.

What do if potentially room acoustics are poor but you don't have deep pockets? Smaller speakers!
If you go smaller, the effective range will be less and there would be less interference.
On top, there are pipes you often can attach to the piano stand, e.g k&m 18810 that would hold lightweight speakers.

But lets face it: For 1000$ USD you probably can grab a cheap acoustic upright. Those units are already created with less need for expensive acoustics. Might be an option!

By the way:

Genelec and Neumann are in my opinion awful for Piano play. They need laser-accurate placement, the opposite of what you want when you potentially give others a treat as well by playing. I had the Neumann KH120A and some Genelec pair that price range. Not good enough for me.

Last edited by Defenz0r (12-06-2023 16:08)

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Defenz0r wrote:

By the way:

Genelec and Neumann are in my opinion awful for Piano play. They need laser-accurate placement, the opposite of what you want when you potentially give others a treat as well by playing. I had the Neumann KH120A and some Genelec pair that price range. Not good enough for me.

Competing engineering compromises..

These small Genelec and Genelec copy (Behringer) have quite small waveguides on the treble - they will be slightly more controlled in directivity compared to a typical box speaker of similar dimensions.
This can slightly improve intelligibility especially as moving further from the loudspeakers. This comes at a cost of a smaller virtual soundstage.

Smaller loudspeakers radiate more of their frequency range in a broader more omnidirectional pattern.  The wider the baffle and wider the drive units the sooner your loudspeakers are beaming sound at the listener (and this has serious pros and cons).

The price you pay for omnidirectionally is a lack of intelligibility when listening from a greater distance. Good omnis can be really excellent in the nearfield though.

Much of what we listen to when we're playing with Pianoteq is really playback of a wet virtual environment,  not a dry piano accurately radiating as if a real piano into a resonant room, listened to from an appropriate distance.

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Key Fumbler wrote:
Defenz0r wrote:

By the way:

Genelec and Neumann are in my opinion awful for Piano play. They need laser-accurate placement, the opposite of what you want when you potentially give others a treat as well by playing. I had the Neumann KH120A and some Genelec pair that price range. Not good enough for me.

Competing engineering compromises..

These small Genelec and Genelec copy (Behringer) have quite small waveguides on the treble - they will be slightly more controlled in directivity compared to a typical box speaker of similar dimensions.
This can slightly improve intelligibility especially as moving further from the loudspeakers. This comes at a cost of a smaller virtual soundstage.

Smaller loudspeakers radiate more of their frequency range in a broader more omnidirectional pattern.  The wider the baffle and wider the drive units the sooner your loudspeakers are beaming sound at the listener (and this has serious pros and cons).

The price you pay for omnidirectionally is a lack of intelligibility when listening from a greater distance. Good omnis can be really excellent in the nearfield though.

Much of what we listen to when we're playing with Pianoteq is really playback of a wet virtual environment,  not a dry piano accurately radiating as if a real piano into a resonant room, listened to from an appropriate distance.

What do you think about the speakers I like? https://www.aps-company.com/klasik-2020-en/

Re: US$1000 speaker challenge...?

Defenz0r wrote:
Key Fumbler wrote:
Defenz0r wrote:

By the way:

Genelec and Neumann are in my opinion awful for Piano play. They need laser-accurate placement, the opposite of what you want when you potentially give others a treat as well by playing. I had the Neumann KH120A and some Genelec pair that price range. Not good enough for me.

Competing engineering compromises..

These small Genelec and Genelec copy (Behringer) have quite small waveguides on the treble - they will be slightly more controlled in directivity compared to a typical box speaker of similar dimensions.
This can slightly improve intelligibility especially as moving further from the loudspeakers. This comes at a cost of a smaller virtual soundstage.

Smaller loudspeakers radiate more of their frequency range in a broader more omnidirectional pattern.  The wider the baffle and wider the drive units the sooner your loudspeakers are beaming sound at the listener (and this has serious pros and cons).

The price you pay for omnidirectionally is a lack of intelligibility when listening from a greater distance. Good omnis can be really excellent in the nearfield though.

Much of what we listen to when we're playing with Pianoteq is really playback of a wet virtual environment,  not a dry piano accurately radiating as if a real piano into a resonant room, listened to from an appropriate distance.

What do you think about the speakers I like? https://www.aps-company.com/klasik-2020-en/

Interesting and refreshing!
Absolutely no frills design with very solid engineering!

Personally I would rather see a larger tweeter dome so it could go lower in it's working range to meet that large (-ish) bass mid but it looks like a really nice design. I'm guessing that bass loading is acting somewhere between typical ported and what's called aperiodic bass loading.
It looks a solid design. At £950 these look like sensible straightforward engineering instead of paying for pretty veneers, cool sounding diaphragm materials without spending ATC type money (second hand ATCs are a good choice if you can afford them). The reviewer said the bass loading sounded more like closed box operation - this is usually a good thing - avoiding one note bass thump. 

I would want to put them on the shortlist. A good find. I would expect them to be very good at this price point.