Topic: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

I recently discovered the Vidal MIDI keyboard controller project that is developing something that will interest many of us.

https://playvidal.com/products/vidal

The concept is a keyboard that looks, feels and plays like a compact piano, with all-wood keys and case, but is a MIDI controller that can play Pianoteq and other VSTs. The MIDI controls on the keyboard (lever, encoder knob, and switch, plus the pedals) are kept to a minimum, but can be assigned to any purpose (for example within Pianoteq MIDI Mappings). Their own web app will enable you to shape velocity mapping and save it to the instrument.

The novel keyboard action really caught my interest. The wood keys are full-length, and pivot on a conventional piano pin rail, with felt bushings. To produce a piano feel through the keystroke, with resistance feedback that changes dynamically like a piano through the stroke, they seem to employ a combination of adjustable springs, weights and magnets, rather than the swinging counterweight hammer substitutes that are used in many other digital keyboard actions. The action can be physically adjusted to be lighter or heavier. They don’t yet show details of their action, but you can see some views of the keybed and keys in the gallery of photos and video clips on their Instagram page @playvidal.

They show plans for 61-, 73- and 88-key versions, but so far photos only of a 61-key model. It appears that some details are still being tested and finalized, but it is certainly an attractive instrument. They say they plan to start shipping instruments this Fall.

The project development team includes (1) a classically trained pianist and piano restoration expert, (2) a bass player and web developer and (3) a software and embedded systems engineer. It is exciting to me that their aim is a keyboard that feels right to a classical pianist on the team who has restored and regulated many grand pianos.  I’m eager to test one!

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Wow - the price is certainly out of my pocket!
I think it a missed opportunity they didn't include a 3 pedal input.

It will be interesting to see real world test done on this when it's available.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Three-pedal input is possible. There are Sustain and Expression jacks that are the usual two connections for a triple pedal such as Fatar VFP3.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

TimN wrote:

Three-pedal input is possible. There are Sustain and Expression jacks that are the usual two connections for a triple pedal such as Fatar VFP3.

Since it is just a controller rather than a source of sound itself none of that actually matters, you can use external midi expression usb adaptor connections. I have multiple expression pedals hooked up right now combined with my humble Casio CDP.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Thanks for sharing ! 

This looks very interesting . Will definitively check it out . It is pricey but it's hand made and I'm sure it beats all the available controllers out there for the action and feel .

Very cool !

Yves

Last edited by Yfrulla (21-05-2023 14:11)

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

There are construction photos of the wood keyboard action for the Vidal MIDI controller now on their Instagram posts:  @playvidal.  Definitely not mass-produced plastic...Looks like all shop-made.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Well, folks wanted a VPC2 and we've got a very interesting alternative instead, adjusting key weight sounds fantastic and full wooden key? Also the case is well designed for VST users, just a clean flat surface.

Thanks for sharing!

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Key Fumbler wrote:
TimN wrote:

Three-pedal input is possible. There are Sustain and Expression jacks that are the usual two connections for a triple pedal such as Fatar VFP3.

Since it is just a controller rather than a source of sound itself none of that actually matters, you can use external midi expression usb adaptor connections. I have multiple expression pedals hooked up right now combined with my humble Casio CDP.

I liked the action of the older Casio CDP's. Very mechanical feel to them.
(scaled hammer action, generation 1)

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Looks very, very well made and of high quality. And regulated to boot!

Warmest regards,

Chris

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

TimN wrote:

I recently discovered the Vidal MIDI keyboard controller project that is developing something that will interest many of us.

https://playvidal.com/products/vidal

The concept is a keyboard that looks, feels and plays like a compact piano, with all-wood keys and case, but is a MIDI controller that can play Pianoteq and other VSTs. The MIDI controls on the keyboard (lever, encoder knob, and switch, plus the pedals) are kept to a minimum, but can be assigned to any purpose (for example within Pianoteq MIDI Mappings). Their own web app will enable you to shape velocity mapping and save it to the instrument.

The novel keyboard action really caught my interest. The wood keys are full-length, and pivot on a conventional piano pin rail, with felt bushings. To produce a piano feel through the keystroke, with resistance feedback that changes dynamically like a piano through the stroke, they seem to employ a combination of adjustable springs, weights and magnets, rather than the swinging counterweight hammer substitutes that are used in many other digital keyboard actions. The action can be physically adjusted to be lighter or heavier. They don’t yet show details of their action, but you can see some views of the keybed and keys in the gallery of photos and video clips on their Instagram page @playvidal.

They show plans for 61-, 73- and 88-key versions, but so far photos only of a 61-key model. It appears that some details are still being tested and finalized, but it is certainly an attractive instrument. They say they plan to start shipping instruments this Fall.

The project development team includes (1) a classically trained pianist and piano restoration expert, (2) a bass player and web developer and (3) a software and embedded systems engineer. It is exciting to me that their aim is a keyboard that feels right to a classical pianist on the team who has restored and regulated many grand pianos.  I’m eager to test one!

I am surprised there is not a word about MIDI on their website.
Realistic piano action is a thing, transcribe movements into precise MIDI events is another thing and is as much important.
I think this is missing in their marketing.
At least, Lachnit covers the topic quite well.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Paulo164 wrote:

I am surprised there is not a word about MIDI on their website.
Realistic piano action is a thing, transcribe movements into precise MIDI events is another thing and is as much important.
I think this is missing in their marketing.
At least, Lachnit covers the topic quite well.

I think they are still finalizing features, so some details are not yet on their website. However, I confirmed with them that it can output Hi-Res MIDI and that the 3 controllers (encoder knob, switch, lever) can be assigned any MIDI function. I'm sure more details will appear soon, including about the sensors and the key action. I believe they are using conventional sensors rather than the optical ones used by Lachnit.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

TimN wrote:
Paulo164 wrote:

I am surprised there is not a word about MIDI on their website.
Realistic piano action is a thing, transcribe movements into precise MIDI events is another thing and is as much important.
I think this is missing in their marketing.
At least, Lachnit covers the topic quite well.

I think they are still finalizing features, so some details are not yet on their website. However, I confirmed with them that it can output Hi-Res MIDI and that the 3 controllers (encoder knob, switch, lever) can be assigned any MIDI function. I'm sure more details will appear soon, including about the sensors and the key action. I believe they are using conventional sensors rather than the optical ones used by Lachnit.

Yes, that’s interesting details! Still to be confirmed but thank you ☺️

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

TimN wrote:
Paulo164 wrote:

I am surprised there is not a word about MIDI on their website.
Realistic piano action is a thing, transcribe movements into precise MIDI events is another thing and is as much important.
I think this is missing in their marketing.
At least, Lachnit covers the topic quite well.

I think they are still finalizing features, so some details are not yet on their website. However, I confirmed with them that it can output Hi-Res MIDI and that the 3 controllers (encoder knob, switch, lever) can be assigned any MIDI function. I'm sure more details will appear soon, including about the sensors and the key action. I believe they are using conventional sensors rather than the optical ones used by Lachnit.

Thanks TimN, some good info you've got. I've dropped them an email enquiring about some technical details about action and also whether they'd ship to Europe, but got no reply unfortunately..

P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

TimN wrote:

I recently discovered the Vidal MIDI keyboard controller project that is developing something that will interest many of us.

https://playvidal.com/products/vidal

The concept is a keyboard that looks, feels and plays like a compact piano, with all-wood keys and case, but is a MIDI controller that can play Pianoteq and other VSTs. The MIDI controls on the keyboard (lever, encoder knob, and switch, plus the pedals) are kept to a minimum, but can be assigned to any purpose (for example within Pianoteq MIDI Mappings). Their own web app will enable you to shape velocity mapping and save it to the instrument.

The novel keyboard action really caught my interest. The wood keys are full-length, and pivot on a conventional piano pin rail, with felt bushings. To produce a piano feel through the keystroke, with resistance feedback that changes dynamically like a piano through the stroke, they seem to employ a combination of adjustable springs, weights and magnets, rather than the swinging counterweight hammer substitutes that are used in many other digital keyboard actions. The action can be physically adjusted to be lighter or heavier. They don’t yet show details of their action, but you can see some views of the keybed and keys in the gallery of photos and video clips on their Instagram page @playvidal.

They show plans for 61-, 73- and 88-key versions, but so far photos only of a 61-key model. It appears that some details are still being tested and finalized, but it is certainly an attractive instrument. They say they plan to start shipping instruments this Fall.

The project development team includes (1) a classically trained pianist and piano restoration expert, (2) a bass player and web developer and (3) a software and embedded systems engineer. It is exciting to me that their aim is a keyboard that feels right to a classical pianist on the team who has restored and regulated many grand pianos.  I’m eager to test one!

The concept is interesting and will for sure be followed by piano keyboards action purists .  The little we know still raises some questions .
1- ) action
What is the end goal for this action ? To best reproduce a grand action or to be able to be versatile and offer multi purpose instruments capabilities ( piano , electric , piano , synths ..) in the former case , I am not sure why you would release a 61, 63 versions on the keyboard , in the later case , not sure full length wooden keys ( excellent for piano) are not really good for organs and synths .
2-) pre ordering & price
Ok price is high so the product will have to match expectations otherwise it’s going to be tricky commercially
Pre ordering without even an online demo seems more like a ‘patreon’ type of funding imho . One would expect at least a significant discount to reward the risk taken to buy a product which is not even visible .
3-) what is the strategy for support ? I refer to specific support when you need the keyboard to be physically inspected by a specialist

I will stay positive and my questions should be considered as feedback rather than negative feedback and I wish best of of luck and success to these guys .

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

joannchr wrote:

The concept is interesting and will for sure be followed by piano keyboards action purists .  The little we know still raises some questions .
1- ) action
What is the end goal for this action ? To best reproduce a grand action or to be able to be versatile and offer multi purpose instruments capabilities ( piano , electric , piano , synths ..) in the former case , I am not sure why you would release a 61, 63 versions on the keyboard , in the later case , not sure full length wooden keys ( excellent for piano) are not really good for organs and synths .
2-) pre ordering & price
Ok price is high so the product will have to match expectations otherwise it’s going to be tricky commercially
Pre ordering without even an online demo seems more like a ‘patreon’ type of funding imho . One would expect at least a significant discount to reward the risk taken to buy a product which is not even visible .
3-) what is the strategy for support ? I refer to specific support when you need the keyboard to be physically inspected by a specialist

I will stay positive and my questions should be considered as feedback rather than negative feedback and I wish best of of luck and success to these guys .

These questions will certainly be addressed eventually by the Vidal people, but I'll share my guesses and perspective:

1. The action is certainly aimed at pianists. 61-key and 73-key versions probably are a nod to the classic Wurlitzer (64) and Rhodes (73) electric pianos, whose VST versions would benefit from this type of keyboard as much as a 88-key classical piano.

2. I have a different concern over pricing...It may be too low. This is a tiny boutique company, who are individually crafting keyboard actions and enclosures one at a time from classic piano materials.  This is not a mass-produced plastic instrument assembled from bins of readily available components. I doubt it is aimed at mass market price points or users, but it still needs to stay within range of us humble musicians. My concern is that they may be unable to survive as a small company if they sell this instrument at the given (low) price, with the materials and skilled labor involved, in the absence of the economy of large numbers.

3. I'm sure they will have a protocol for service, but it looks like the action will have few moving parts to regulate

Like you, I very much wish them luck, and have my fingers crossed that they are successful!

Last edited by TimN (06-06-2023 15:55)

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

Been emailing with Tom from Vidal and this is the summary in case it helps others:

They're working on several iterations of the action, so there's no ultimate design so far, they're listening to customers and their demands.

For now they're working on a 32cm pivot length, single balance rail but they've decided to shorten that pivot length a bit and to make it the one of a Steinway D with offset balance rails for white and black keys, so they feel the same as one would expect in an acoustic instrument.

The action has no hammers whatsoever, it's provided with springs at the end and magnets underneath, a new technology they've developed to avoid typical issues on the traditional digital actions like wrong dynamic resistance and slow returns etc.

It's got 2 sensor far back underneath the keys so one couldn't feel he's pressing on anything strange.

There's also variable Note-off MIDI signal depending on how quick the keys are released (not a fixed value like some expensive digitals i.e. NV10S).

A cool feature is that users can manually adjust the hardness of the springs and also how much magnets/counterweights they wanna place underneath the keys to make it feel slightly different and more to one's taste.

The keyboard is very slim (there's no room needed for hammer motion etc. ) and can be opened from the top for a quick service, replacements should be easily available.

The price in the US is around 3200€ plus ca. 200€ if want it shipped to Europe (my case).

This is a picture of the action they're currently working on, not the ultimate one though, they're still testing and changing on the run, good thing is they're actively listening to customers and are aiming to the perfect controller, no compromises taken.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eZnpM-...p=drivesdk

There's more media to see on their Instagram account (Play Vidal) in case you feel curious or wanna know more.

I'm not affiliated in any way nor making any profit, just sharing in case someone is looking for a new MIDI controller as it's my case.

I myself think that it's a bit expensive and a risk since you can't test drive it (they're bases in Phily if you're around and want to pay them a visit so you could try one).

For now I think the LX706 for quite less money may offer some similar features on paper (offset balance rails, variable note-off, long pivot length..) at a lower price and you get some sound engine and pedals as a bonus if you want.

Not sure if worth the investment in seek of excellence, on the vids I've seen the action seemed a bit bouncy to me, not sure what you guys think about it.

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (15-06-2023 12:51)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

Been emailing with Tom from Vidal and this is the summary in case it helps others:

They're working on several iterations of the action, so there's no ultimate design so far, they're listening to customers and their demands.

For now they're working on a 32cm pivot length, single balance rail but they've decided to shorten that pivot length a bit and to make it the one of a Steinway D with offset balance rails for white and black keys, so they feel the same as one would expect in an acoustic instrument.

The action has no hammers whatsoever, it's provided with springs at the end and magnets underneath, a new technology they've developed to avoid typical issues on the traditional digital actions like wrong dynamic resistance and slow returns etc.

It's got 2 sensor far back underneath the keys so one couldn't feel he's pressing on anything strange.

There's also variable Note-off MIDI signal depending on how quick the keys are released (not a fixed value like some expensive digitals i.e. NV10S).

A cool feature is that users can manually adjust the hardness of the springs and also how much magnets/counterweights they wanna place underneath the keys to make it feel slightly different and more to one's taste.

The keyboard is very slim (there's no room needed for hammer motion etc. ) and can be opened from the top for a quick service, replacements should be easily available.

The price in the US is around 3200€ plus ca. 200€ if want it shipped to Europe (my case).

This is a picture of the action they're currently working on, not the ultimate one though, they're still testing and changing on the run, good thing is they're actively listening to customers and are aiming to the perfect controller, no compromises taken.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eZnpM-...p=drivesdk

There's more media to see on their Instagram account (Play Vidal) in case you feel curious or wanna know more.

I'm not affiliated in any way nor making any profit, just sharing in case someone is looking for a new MIDI controller as it's my case.

I myself think that it's a bit expensive and a risk since you can't test drive it (they're bases in Phily if you're around and want to pay them a visit so you could try one).

For now I think the LX706 for quite less money may offer some similar features on paper (offset balance rails, variable note-off, long pivot length..) at a lower price and you get some sound engine and pedals as a bonus if you want.

Not sure if worth the investment in seek of excellence, on the vids I've seen the action seemed a bit bouncy to me, not sure what you guys think about it.

Very interesting. Thank you for updating . Just as a matter of curiosity, do you happen to know what is their approach regarding simulation of double escapement. A part hybrids , most DP implement a fake rubber to replicate the feel you get on an acoustic , but the advantage of it is still a matter of debate , as some argue that the effect itself is a negative collateral effect  of the double escapement mechanism but not a desired action feature  as such.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

davidizquierdo82 wrote:

For now I think the LX706 for quite less money may offer some similar features on paper (offset balance rails, variable note-off, long pivot length..) at a lower price and you get some sound engine and pedals as a bonus if you want.

Perhaps the Roland LX706 is less expensive in the EU, but in the US it is almost twice as expensive as this Vidal price.

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

This has pitch and modulation controls. So it could also be used to control one's synths/virtual instruments.
For this I would suggest:
- Perhaps the modulation control should be a slider
- Have four continuous/switch pedal inputs for say a 3-pedal unit (e.g. Roland RPU 3) and an expression pedal
- Offer polyphonic aftertouch as an option

Also I understand MIDI 2.0 is not coming by express delivery, but could it be upgradable to that when it arrives?

Re: Vidal MIDI keyboard controller

This is a picture in case it helps (just learnt how to upload pics, not sure it's possible to embed)

https://ibb.co/qndkD3V

Last edited by davidizquierdo82 (29-06-2023 11:01)
P85>Kawai CA97>Numa XGT>FP90X>LX706
Pianoteq 8 Pro (all instruments) + Organteq 2
i7 4790K W11 64bits + UMC1820 + MTM + DT770 pro X
http://youtube.com/DavidIzquierdoAzzouz