Expression Pedal Support (for Volume Control)?

Pianoteq 8 Pro appears to support these pedal types in the drop down (could not find details in the manual, but the balloon help provided some insight as to their functions):

Sustain Pedal
Soft Pedal
Harmonic Pedal
Sostenuto Pedal
Super Sostenuto
Rattle Pedal
Buff Stop Pedal
Celeste Pedal
Pinch Harmonic Pedal
Glissando Pedal
Mozart Rail

Is there a way to use an "Expression Pedal" with Pianoteq 8 Pro for volume control?  [Yamaha MX88 Synth Keyboard]

I am trying to reduce the volume of a single note played at the end of a piece (which has proven wildly difficult to do as a stacatissimo Bb0/Bb1 on this synth GHS graded hammer standard keyboard).  I have a Yamaha "FC7 Expression Pedal" which is difficult to control, so I am using a FC3A sustain pedal plugged into my Yamaha MX88 Synth Foot Controller port.  (In the other pedal port marked Sustain, I am also using an FC3A for sustain).

In the above configuration I can make this work with the keyboards built-in piano sounds--but I have had no luck with Pianoteq.  I've tried playing with the Pedal curve in Pianoteq and using various pedal types in the list above (e.g. Buff Stop Pedal) and I can't seem to get it to work.

It appears than when I press down on the FC3A "expression pedal" substitute, Pianoteq appears to get a signal "Controller 11."  Using MIDI Monitor on my Mac, when I press on the pedal I get Chan 1; Expression (coarse) with numbers seeming to range from 1-127 based on how much I push on the pedal.

Can someone please confirm that the software can support an Expression pedal for volume control?  And if not, might there be some kind of work-around?
(I can not use the Note Edit>Volume function, because I need to also use that same note at normal volume throughout the piece . . .)

Thank you.

DeanP wrote:

Pianoteq 8 Pro appears to support these pedal types in the drop down (could not find details in the manual, but the balloon help provided some insight as to their functions):

Sustain Pedal
Soft Pedal
Harmonic Pedal
Sostenuto Pedal
Super Sostenuto
Rattle Pedal
Buff Stop Pedal
Celeste Pedal
Pinch Harmonic Pedal
Glissando Pedal
Mozart Rail

Is there a way to use an "Expression Pedal" with Pianoteq 8 Pro for volume control?  [Yamaha MX88 Synth Keyboard]

I am trying to reduce the volume of a single note played at the end of a piece (which has proven wildly difficult to do as a stacatissimo Bb0/Bb1 on this synth GHS graded hammer standard keyboard).  I have a Yamaha "FC7 Expression Pedal" which is difficult to control, so I am using a FC3A sustain pedal plugged into my Yamaha MX88 Synth Foot Controller port.  (In the other pedal port marked Sustain, I am also using an FC3A for sustain).

In the above configuration I can make this work with the keyboards built-in piano sounds--but I have had no luck with Pianoteq.  I've tried playing with the Pedal curve in Pianoteq and using various pedal types in the list above (e.g. Buff Stop Pedal) and I can't seem to get it to work.

It appears than when I press down on the FC3A "expression pedal" substitute, Pianoteq appears to get a signal "Controller 11."  Using MIDI Monitor on my Mac, when I press on the pedal I get Chan 1; Expression (coarse) with numbers seeming to range from 1-127 based on how much I push on the pedal.

Can someone please confirm that the software can support an Expression pedal for volume control?  And if not, might there be some kind of work-around?
(I can not use the Note Edit>Volume function, because I need to also use that same note at normal volume throughout the piece . . .)

Thank you.

I am not sure you can use it with Pianoteq. The dynamics are controlled by the velocity on a piano and this is what Pianoteq models. Expression pedal are used on instruments such as organs and synths where the acceleration of the key during its descent have no impact on the volume.( Organtec supports expression pedals ) So the best expression pedal on a piano is your fingers. 

You can probably achieve what you want , using Pianoteq as a VST in a DAW.
and using a pedal to USB adapter ( such as audiofront or doremidi) then  plug your expression pedal in your computer and create 2 tracks in the DAW which are chained ( 1 pianoteq track and 1 pedal track using the CC signals sent by your expression pedal, the pianoteq track becoming the input to your pedal track ) . Other workaround you could try is to do the midi mapping using the CC used by your pedal to una corda , but it is not really an ideal option, as una corda primary function is to change the tone of the piano , so you will manage to get a sound with less volume for a given velocity but with a different piano tone.

Qexl wrote:

There's also software like "Gig Performer" (with a 10% Pianoteq owner discount) and "Cantabile".

In case of lowering something on 1 final note, maybe not the simplest route to install either of these - but maybe they will suit or inspire you with regards to any other performance related tasks you may have in mind.

Hi Qexl,

Had not heard of either of these software packages and will read up on how they work.  Thank you for the ideas.

DeanP

DeanP wrote:

joannchr wrote:

I am not sure you can use it with Pianoteq. The dynamics are controlled by the velocity on a piano and this is what Pianoteq models. Expression pedal are used on instruments such as organs and synths where the acceleration of the key during its descent have no impact on the volume.( Organtec supports expression pedals ) So the best expression pedal on a piano is your fingers. 

You can probably achieve what you want , using Pianoteq as a VST in a DAW.
and using a pedal to USB adapter ( such as audiofront or doremidi) then  plug your expression pedal in your computer and create 2 tracks in the DAW which are chained ( 1 pianoteq track and 1 pedal track using the CC signals sent by your expression pedal, the pianoteq track becoming the input to your pedal track ) . Other workaround you could try is to do the midi mapping using the CC used by your pedal to una corda , but it is not really an ideal option, as una corda primary function is to change the tone of the piano , so you will manage to get a sound with less volume for a given velocity but with a different piano tone.

Hello joannchr,

Thank you for your educational/thoughtful reply.  I really didn't know that expression pedals are more for organ/synth applications--since the Yamaha MX88 is technically a synth (with graded hammer standard action), I taught myself how to play the piano on it, and its worked fairly well.  Unfortunately for some reason my finger is not working in this case. 

(Warning TMI . . . too much information ahead . . .) The song I am working on is Jimbo's Lullaby, Debussy.  Measure/bar 76 (in the JW Pepper sheet music) is notated "morendo" (gradual softening of volume or tempo or both so the sound slowly dies asway).  But the final note has a staccatissimo symbol, so in combination with the morendo it seems logical that the sound would be very, very quiet, even for this staccatissimo note.  I've heard this ending described as a parent tip toeing out of a child's room after reading them a bed time story and they have fallen a sleep.  I've heard some performers play this last note as a staccatissimo at a "normal" volume.  But I have also heard a couple where the note is so soft you almost can't hear it.  This is the interpretation I really, really like--it makes the piece super dynamic, interesting and fun.

Thank you for the tip on trying a DAW with a pedal to USB adapter such as audiofront or doremidi, had not heard of these and will read up on them.  I think I tried the Una Corda pedal idea, but will give it another try.  Thanks again.

DeanP

You are welcome ! I didn't know the musical reason behind your request. Now it is much clearer. FYI my favourite composers are Ravel and Debussy. The Children's corner  even though considered as easy work for Debussy is in fact quite tricky to perform well as usual with Debussy's music. So congrats for trying it.  The challenge is in indeed  about dynamics and how to create multiple crescendos and diminuendos with basically all possible articulations possibles : legato, staccato, portato, tenuto and all accents, all of that played between p and ppp.   So technically speaking it is a masterclass for the touch.
You can use sustain ( using specific debussy technique ) but if possible don't use the una corda in this piece  to control dynamics, as it would interfere with the purpose of the piece itself from a dynamic standpoint , only use it with parsimony to alter the tone at the end of  musical phrases. The final note is the apogee and cannot be missed, it has to play in the most possible aerial way, with the lightest possible quick staccato which requires a lot of practice to do it well , no una corda at all here, just  magic touch. This is a case when you practice on one note only until you get it right in a consistent manner. Nightmare when you play that piece in public , on a piano that you are not to familiar with, as all people who know this piece will wait for the last note

I recommend listening to Michelangeli version  with his incredible touch.

https://youtu.be/pLRl0j483oI

The way he plays the end denotes total mastery of piano touch.
Seriously , using an expression pedal would be an absolute crime here, so you have to practice the low dynamics quite a lot. This is actually very rewarding . Many pianists have problems with 'ppp' playing. 

I can also recommend that in Pianoteq, you move the slider of hammer hardness ( Piano slider ) to the extreme minimum on the left which will give you a very soft tone in low dynamics but different from the una corda effect , as the overall tone of the piano is conserved given the hammers are still hitting the strings with the worn portion of the felt at the difference of una corda.

Cheers and enjoy practising.

joannchr wrote:

DeanP wrote:

Hello joannchr,

Thank you for your educational/thoughtful reply.  I really didn't know that expression pedals are more for organ/synth applications--since the Yamaha MX88 is technically a synth (with graded hammer standard action), I taught myself how to play the piano on it, and its worked fairly well.  Unfortunately for some reason my finger is not working in this case. 

(Warning TMI . . . too much information ahead . . .) The song I am working on is Jimbo's Lullaby, Debussy.  Measure/bar 76 (in the JW Pepper sheet music) is notated "morendo" (gradual softening of volume or tempo or both so the sound slowly dies asway).  But the final note has a staccatissimo symbol, so in combination with the morendo it seems logical that the sound would be very, very quiet, even for this staccatissimo note.  I've heard this ending described as a parent tip toeing out of a child's room after reading them a bed time story and they have fallen a sleep.  I've heard some performers play this last note as a staccatissimo at a "normal" volume.  But I have also heard a couple where the note is so soft you almost can't hear it.  This is the interpretation I really, really like--it makes the piece super dynamic, interesting and fun.

Thank you for the tip on trying a DAW with a pedal to USB adapter such as audiofront or doremidi, had not heard of these and will read up on them.  I think I tried the Una Corda pedal idea, but will give it another try.  Thanks again.

DeanP

You are welcome ! I didn't know the musical reason behind your request. Now it is much clearer. FYI my favourite composers are Ravel and Debussy. The Children's corner  even though considered as easy work for Debussy is in fact quite tricky to perform well as usual with Debussy's music. So congrats for trying it.  The challenge is in indeed  about dynamics and how to create multiple crescendos and diminuendos with basically all possible articulations possibles : legato, staccato, portato, tenuto and all accents, all of that played between p and ppp.   So technically speaking it is a masterclass for the touch.
You can use sustain ( using specific debussy technique ) but if possible don't use the una corda in this piece  to control dynamics, as it would interfere with the purpose of the piece itself from a dynamic standpoint , only use it with parsimony to alter the tone at the end of  musical phrases. The final note is the apogee and cannot be missed, it has to play in the most possible aerial way, with the lightest possible quick staccato which requires a lot of practice to do it well , no una corda at all here, just  magic touch. This is a case when you practice on one note only until you get it right in a consistent manner. Nightmare when you play that piece in public , on a piano that you are not to familiar with, as all people who know this piece will wait for the last note

I recommend listening to Michelangeli version  with his incredible touch.

https://youtu.be/pLRl0j483oI

The way he plays the end denotes total mastery of piano touch.
Seriously , using an expression pedal would be an absolute crime here, so you have to practice the low dynamics quite a lot. This is actually very rewarding . Many pianists have problems with 'ppp' playing. 

I can also recommend that in Pianoteq, you move the slider of hammer hardness ( Piano slider ) to the extreme minimum on the left which will give you a very soft tone in low dynamics but different from the una corda effect , as the overall tone of the piano is conserved given the hammers are still hitting the strings with the worn portion of the felt at the difference of una corda.

Cheers and enjoy practising.

Hi joannchr,

Wow, I had a feeling that the last note in Jimbo's Lullaby was important--thank you for explaining why.
My inspiration has been another Michelangeli recording on YouTube, where the final note is even quieter than the performance you referred me to:

https://youtu.be/SdCqaDjIWkc

Children's Corner, L. 113: II. Jimbo's Lullaby (assez modéré) · Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Maurice Ravel: Gaspard de la nuit, Piano Concerto, Valses nobles et sentimentales - Claude Debussy: Children's Corner
℗ Praga Digitals
Released on: 2012-10-01
Piano: Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Composer: Claude Debussy

I am going to try the Pianoteq hammer adjustment you mentioned tomorrow.

Meanwhile, my Yamaha MX88 Synth does have graded hammer action, but I believe it has 2-sensors, rather than 3 and of course the (plastic?) keysticks are no where near the length of acoustic grand piano keysticks.  My gut has been telling me that PPP may be beyond the hardware capability, since I have been practicing doing it for months.  The keyboard is also slow and heavy, again, not light and fast which I hear helps (I have not really played acoustic or acoustic grand pianos).  But practicing has helped a lot.  Pianoteq is extending the life of my synth, especially the Bluthner software which I use for these classical pieces.

I am dreaming about the next Kawai MP11SE model (MP12?)--due to the slip-tape/key sticking issue and its age.  Hoping this gets me a little closer to the hardware expressiveness of a grand piano in my tiny bedroom studio.

Again thank you so much for helping me with my piano education.

DeanP

Pardon me if I'm more naive than I should, but I think the following is a best pianistic solution to the problem.

If you don't use the "una corda" pedal elsewhere in the piece, you can perhaps configure that pedal to do what you need, which is what you might do on a concert grand too.

IIRC, in pianoteq you can configure the voicing of the una corda and you could do so to leave the same timbre but much lower volume. If I am mistaken here, you can assign the una corda to the celeste (IIRC the name) which is what is typical for acoustic uprights, where it places the hammers closer to the strings. That one simply reduces volume and not timbre.

Hope this helps

Pardon me if I'm more naive than I should, but I think the following is a best pianistic solution to the problem.

If you don't use the "una corda" pedal elsewhere in the piece, you can perhaps configure that pedal to do what you need, which is what you might do on a concert grand too.

IIRC, in pianoteq you can configure the voicing of the una corda and you could do so to leave the same timbre but much lower volume. If I am mistaken here, you can assign the una corda to the celeste (IIRC the name) which is what is typical for acoustic uprights, where it places the hammers closer to the strings. That one simply reduces volume and not timbre.

Hope this helps

joannchr wrote:

dv wrote:

Pardon me if I'm more naive than I should, but I think the following is a best pianistic solution to the problem.

If you don't use the "una corda" pedal elsewhere in the piece, you can perhaps configure that pedal to do what you need, which is what you might do on a concert grand too.

IIRC, in pianoteq you can configure the voicing of the una corda and you could do so to leave the same timbre but much lower volume. If I am mistaken here, you can assign the una corda to the celeste (IIRC the name) which is what is typical for acoustic uprights, where it places the hammers closer to the strings. That one simply reduces volume and not timbre.

Hope this helps

I had additional thoughts and I think in the case you want to use a pedal to control the output , a better way to do it would be to reconfigure the soft pedal as a Mozart rail pedal in pianoteq as it reduces the key dip and the distance between the hammer and the strings so as such does affect the colour of the tone like una corda or celeste. That being said for this particular piece , it is considered as a 'cheat' and not academic. Cheers

Hi joannchr,
Tried this with the Yamaha MX88 synth hardware I have, with the Yamaha FC3A (sustain-function) pedal and Yamaha FC7 Expression pedal.  Tried both in the port labeled "Foot Controller."  I could not get the Mozart Rail Pedal function to work with the software--no change in volume at all.  But I did have fun reading about the Mozart Rail pedal and watching videos on how it works and sounds.

Meanwhile I discovered a couple other things.  Apparently Apple Logic Pro defines pp as velocity 32 and ppp velocity 16 https://nickleusmusic.blogspot.com/2013...s-for.html

I opened the PIanoteq OPTIONS>MIDI screen and discovered my Note 022 Bb-1 velocity is varying around 18-19.  The last few measures/bars of Jimbo's Lullaby are notated as pp and morendo.  So maybe I am approaching the correct touch by just practicing (?) . . . Although I think the note sounds best below 16, probably in the velocity 10 area.  I'll keep practicing.

This whole exercise as dumb as it might sound on the surface, has me really thinking about how MIDI and Pianoteq work. The way I get the lowest velocities on my keyboard is pressing the key very very slowly all the way down.  But doing a stacatissimo seems to require the exact opposite, sort of flicking the key down with your finger, very quickly.  The faster I flick/snap the key down the louder it seems to get.  It seems counterintuitive.

Thank you for all your help/encouragement.
DeanP