Topic: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

Well, not quite.  But how many software pianos have it?  The difference between an acoustic and any digital is that zing, or Meow of the strings which can be quite offputting to those unaccustumed to acoustics.  Or those who don't like cats.
Acoustic piano makers are attempting to reduce such extraneoys noises, i've read.
Now, the nearest Pianoteq gets to this is a control under "Design" called "energy" and "Blooming" which, with respect, sounds more like West Indian Kettle Drums.
Maybe I'm using it wrong . . .
. . .

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

peterws wrote:

Well, not quite.  But how many software pianos have it?  The difference between an acoustic and any digital is that zing, or Meow of the strings which can be quite offputting to those unaccustumed to acoustics.  Or those who don't like cats.
Acoustic piano makers are attempting to reduce such extraneoys noises, i've read.
Now, the nearest Pianoteq gets to this is a control under "Design" called "energy" and "Blooming" which, with respect, sounds more like West Indian Kettle Drums.
Maybe I'm using it wrong . . .
. . .

Certainly you can stretch it out to sound very fake. So you can use Pianoteq as a kind of synthesizer, not just piano modelling.

The discussion regarding realism Vs original intention of the original instrument could be quite interesting, or could get quite messy pretty quickly.

People modelling instruments on a computer desire to replicate the extraneous noises, all the additional resonances, whilst the manufacturers of the real thing seek mechanical perfection, arguably even embarrassed by these imperfect elements. Both of these are understandable in their own ways.
Similarly this is doubly so when we're talking about those folks modelling all the imperfections of vintage hardware. Hardware compressors etc.

Apart from the obvious changes to the model you could also make sure that the preset that you use isn't a close mic option.

Hard to know what it is exactly you are criticising, or what sound you wish to achieve.

Re: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

peterws wrote:

Well, not quite.  But how many software pianos have it?  The difference between an acoustic and any digital is that zing, or Meow of the strings which can be quite offputting to those unaccustumed to acoustics.  Or those who don't like cats.
Acoustic piano makers are attempting to reduce such extraneoys noises, i've read.
Now, the nearest Pianoteq gets to this is a control under "Design" called "energy" and "Blooming" which, with respect, sounds more like West Indian Kettle Drums.
Maybe I'm using it wrong . . .
. . .

I really like this thought. Reminds me of that Spitfire felt piano guy. It's like the idea that it's the imperfections that make a musical instrument's timbre beautiful and endearing. Cat guy, right here. Hi five!

Or like Fourier analysis (yes/no???) and sine waves. Sure there's function to the the simple tone, but what else is there? Tell me a story, that's what I want. Why is this string's construction so hardened and tense, wound and missing xyz partials?

Last edited by bani223 (28-03-2023 06:40)
MOTU M2 using native ASIO driver, Windows 11, weird tweaks needed to make it work, but seems fine now.
I have posted several times about tweaking Pianoteq

Re: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

Yes, I love the noises pianos can make. Spent most of my time in the past trying to limit that in recordings - but these days, really enjoy hearing it and making some of it prominent in places.

Agree with above - and certainly I think tiny moves with things like bloom stays closer to realism - but love pushing things into creative territory still, esp. making layered 'fantasy' instruments. So glad that Philippe kept the ability to create uniquely non-piano-like sounds beyond normal piano sounds.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

Qexl wrote:

Yes, I love the noises pianos can make. Spent most of my time in the past trying to limit that in recordings - but these days, really enjoy hearing it and making some of it prominent in places.

Agree with above - and certainly I think tiny moves with things like bloom stays closer to realism - but love pushing things into creative territory still, esp. making layered 'fantasy' instruments. So glad that Philippe kept the ability to create uniquely non-piano-like sounds beyond normal piano sounds.

and this is the beauty of Pianoteq.  There's so much in a piano sound, from the mic position (hate fiddling with those, always get it wrong) to unison, condition, hammer hardness . . .oh, wow!
And then you mess up so badly.  You just download the original preset again.

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

Yes, mics are great but never too easy, nor in real life - but the recent added mic array types are excellent ones to try out in the mic presets.

So many aspects to adjust that it still hasn't 'worn out' my curiosity.. one of those tools which is SO good, I don't think I'll ever feel that I have 'finished' with it.. the physics being fascinating, and the playability for inspiring ourselves to play better and audio results being perfection for recording makes it kind of infinitely useful. I love to pick and choose exactly how much of every noisy bit to limit or expose - and those defaults are so useful as they are.

peterws wrote:

And then you mess up so badly.

Hehe - part of the good fun, isn't it - I know a lot of my edits are for quick inserted piano parts/tracks and many are not for making Pianoteq 'better' (that's a mistake people make IMHO.. sure make a piano from Mars but.. good luck making a better overall piano.. I think the aim is "what we want to hear" - and it will prob always sound closer to realism by sticking closer to the default begun with.)

But, still I really do love to mess things up too far (big moves on sliders), I think that way we can really stretch our understanding of I guess 'reality' regarding piano sounds generally.. by pushing things way too far (and back!! and repeat - and trying two things 'adversarially' one up, other down, and back, and swap etc..) we eventually hear/understand with more certainty each of the aspects of the mess we do like or wish to bring up or hide for our purposes. Then back to the start and do it all again differently heh.. I've found that now, I can just put most focus on just tiny or tasteful versions of the overdone tweaks made in the past - the time monkeying around end up giving us some nice personal fav tweaks to the various controls

Like you mention there bani223, partials.. and going beyond sine waves and such.. it's still heaps of fun to move the spectrum sliders.. when moving just one, it can make a plastic or candy timbre emerge.. but subtly moving 3 or 4 in different ways can alter so much - it's so fabulous balancing these things and finding just the extra zing or meaow we want from those kinds of things

Well, this thread genuinely made me swap a day out to have a Pianoteq day Thanks and cheers Peter and bani!

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

Qexl wrote:

Yes, mics are great but never too easy, nor in real life - but the recent added mic array types are excellent ones to try out in the mic presets.

So many aspects to adjust that it still hasn't 'worn out' my curiosity.. one of those tools which is SO good, I don't think I'll ever feel that I have 'finished' with it.. the physics being fascinating, and the playability for inspiring ourselves to play better and audio results being perfection for recording makes it kind of infinitely useful. I love to pick and choose exactly how much of every noisy bit to limit or expose - and those defaults are so useful as they are.

peterws wrote:

And then you mess up so badly.

Hehe - part of the good fun, isn't it - I know a lot of my edits are for quick inserted piano parts/tracks and many are not for making Pianoteq 'better' (that's a mistake people make IMHO.. sure make a piano from Mars but.. good luck making a better overall piano.. I think the aim is "what we want to hear" - and it will prob always sound closer to realism by sticking closer to the default begun with.)

But, still I really do love to mess things up too far (big moves on sliders), I think that way we can really stretch our understanding of I guess 'reality' regarding piano sounds generally.. by pushing things way too far (and back!! and repeat - and trying two things 'adversarially' one up, other down, and back, and swap etc..) we eventually hear/understand with more certainty each of the aspects of the mess we do like or wish to bring up or hide for our purposes. Then back to the start and do it all again differently heh.. I've found that now, I can just put most focus on just tiny or tasteful versions of the overdone tweaks made in the past - the time monkeying around end up giving us some nice personal fav tweaks to the various controls

Like you mention there bani223, partials.. and going beyond sine waves and such.. it's still heaps of fun to move the spectrum sliders.. when moving just one, it can make a plastic or candy timbre emerge.. but subtly moving 3 or 4 in different ways can alter so much - it's so fabulous balancing these things and finding just the extra zing or meaow we want from those kinds of things

Well, this thread genuinely made me swap a day out to have a Pianoteq day Thanks and cheers Peter and bani!

A turn up.  I was playing the Bechstein DG and noodling with lower scale chords when I heard a distinctive Meeeaaww on those lower notes, both with or without the pedal depressed.
Worthy of further investigation!
This was apparent also on the Ant Petrof and has something to do with the tuning , I think..

I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order

Re: Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that zing . . .

peterws wrote:
Qexl wrote:

Yes, mics are great but never too easy, nor in real life - but the recent added mic array types are excellent ones to try out in the mic presets.

So many aspects to adjust that it still hasn't 'worn out' my curiosity.. one of those tools which is SO good, I don't think I'll ever feel that I have 'finished' with it.. the physics being fascinating, and the playability for inspiring ourselves to play better and audio results being perfection for recording makes it kind of infinitely useful. I love to pick and choose exactly how much of every noisy bit to limit or expose - and those defaults are so useful as they are.

peterws wrote:

And then you mess up so badly.

Hehe - part of the good fun, isn't it - I know a lot of my edits are for quick inserted piano parts/tracks and many are not for making Pianoteq 'better' (that's a mistake people make IMHO.. sure make a piano from Mars but.. good luck making a better overall piano.. I think the aim is "what we want to hear" - and it will prob always sound closer to realism by sticking closer to the default begun with.)

But, still I really do love to mess things up too far (big moves on sliders), I think that way we can really stretch our understanding of I guess 'reality' regarding piano sounds generally.. by pushing things way too far (and back!! and repeat - and trying two things 'adversarially' one up, other down, and back, and swap etc..) we eventually hear/understand with more certainty each of the aspects of the mess we do like or wish to bring up or hide for our purposes. Then back to the start and do it all again differently heh.. I've found that now, I can just put most focus on just tiny or tasteful versions of the overdone tweaks made in the past - the time monkeying around end up giving us some nice personal fav tweaks to the various controls

Like you mention there bani223, partials.. and going beyond sine waves and such.. it's still heaps of fun to move the spectrum sliders.. when moving just one, it can make a plastic or candy timbre emerge.. but subtly moving 3 or 4 in different ways can alter so much - it's so fabulous balancing these things and finding just the extra zing or meaow we want from those kinds of things

Well, this thread genuinely made me swap a day out to have a Pianoteq day Thanks and cheers Peter and bani!

A turn up.  I was playing the Bechstein DG and noodling with lower scale chords when I heard a distinctive Meeeaaww on those lower notes, both with or without the pedal depressed.
Worthy of further investigation!
This was apparent also on the Ant Petrof and has something to do with the tuning , I think..

Meeeaaww sounds like a puzzle (or a wonderful weirdness). I've been playing with Ant Petrof the past few days, myself. Definitely something in that bass. For me puzzling through Pianoteq, it's ~5/6 about creating new presets to fit my headphones, 1/6 tweaking for speakers since I live close to my neighbors. I would call it a theatrical brightness to the 275 and the related presets as I hear it through the headphones.

Last edited by bani223 (12-04-2023 23:06)
MOTU M2 using native ASIO driver, Windows 11, weird tweaks needed to make it work, but seems fine now.
I have posted several times about tweaking Pianoteq