Topic: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

Any solution how to fix occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets?

All sockets in an old house are ungrounded (no metal ground cable).
This occasional digital noise is when I use Pianoteq and without it when I'm just playing the keyboard with internal sounds and PC turned off.
To install new electrical wiring is not an option.
I tried Morley Hum-Exterminator https://www.guitarcenter.com/Morley/Hum...0332190.gc and it didn't help.

Any practical solution from those who experienced the same issue are appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

Have you tried ground loop breakers? If you are using a laptop I think a good way to check ground issues is to plug off the power chord and see (hear) if the hum and pops disappear. If they do, then a ground loop breaker may help.

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

kihar wrote:

Have you tried ground loop breakers? If you are using a laptop I think a good way to check ground issues is to plug off the power chord and see (hear) if the hum and pops disappear. If they do, then a ground loop breaker may help.

I tried Morley Hum-Exterminator https://www.guitarcenter.com/Morley/Hum...0332190.gc and it didn't help.
As I understand this is what you mean by ground loop breaker.
Please correct me if I am wrong and suggest exact model.

Last edited by hodor (22-03-2023 01:29)

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

The product in your link is supposed to be used to clean mains current. The box that I mean is meant to be used between your computer and monitors. It is isolation transformer or optoisolator.

Something like this: https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_pocket_di_2.htm

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

hodor wrote:
kihar wrote:

Have you tried ground loop breakers? If you are using a laptop I think a good way to check ground issues is to plug off the power chord and see (hear) if the hum and pops disappear. If they do, then a ground loop breaker may help.

I tried Morley Hum-Exterminator https://www.guitarcenter.com/Morley/Hum...0332190.gc and it didn't help.
As I understand this is what you mean by ground loop breaker.
Please correct me if I am wrong and suggest exact model.

I'm not entirely convinced the problem you are getting has anything to do with grounding. Or at least, aground hum sounds very different. It can appear as a high whine or as a low hum. Not as infrequent crackling.

I used to get something like this in my old studio apartment when I was in college. I finally tracked it to the fridge switching on and off. Using a cheap mixing desk may not have helped either. I know you say rewiring is not an option, but perhaps it's possible to use a breaker group for your audio gear? Also make sure you are wiring your audio gear in a star pattern, i.e. branch out your mains from a single wall socket.

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

kihar wrote:

The product in your link is supposed to be used to clean mains current. The box that I mean is meant to be used between your computer and monitors. It is isolation transformer or optoisolator.

Something like this: https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_pocket_di_2.htm

I tried already to use external sound card (for about $200) and it didn't help...
As I understand the one you are talking about has similar idea.

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

hodor wrote:
kihar wrote:

The product in your link is supposed to be used to clean mains current. The box that I mean is meant to be used between your computer and monitors. It is isolation transformer or optoisolator.

Something like this: https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_pocket_di_2.htm

I tried already to use external sound card (for about $200) and it didn't help...
As I understand the one you are talking about has similar idea.

Why are you so convinced that an 'ungrounded' outlet is the problem? If your volume control is not digital, that
could be where the issue lies.

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

We probably need to know the entire electrical signal chain, starting with the DP and going through to the speakers plus anything else on the circuit.  These sorts of issues can be quite strange to debug.  I've had faulty wiring cause it once: an exhaust fan was on a shared circuit with a poorly bonded neutral, and every time the fan came on or off, it sent a small overvolt into the speakers causing crackling and even caused the USB on the computer to reset.  Sometimes it's the interface, sometimes it's the speaker amplifier, sometimes it's the speaker drivers, sometimes it's the cable.  The list goes on...  My most notorious hum puzzle came from a new GPU causing overvolts and undervolts in the PCI-e power draw, which an internal sound card translated into noise.  It can be dozens of things.  Some people will recommend that you can only get perfect results with either a dedicated subpanel or an exclusive utility hookup for a sound studio, but I've found that to be overkill/unnecessary for any small studio--something where you have a 32+ channel mixer, giant near-field monitors, and several isolated rooms is its own animal.  Basically, if all of your equipment can run off of one 15-20amp residential breaker, that advice won't apply.

Usually grounding doesn't do much in the grand scheme of things (it's important and shouldn't be interfered with but is becoming decreasingly necessary), especially on more modern equipment, hence most big appliances now are simply two-pronged.  Grounding really matters most when there's a mass of conductive metal in something (read KitchenAid stand mixer or three-phase tablesaw), and then only when the unit is experiencing a lightning strike or major electrical fault.

If you're house has only has a 60-70 year old fuse box, then you're wiring likely has deeper problems than just this.  (If you've got knob and tube, I'm proud to know ya' and really can't help you!)  Supposedly putting a GFCI breaker or outlet at the start of the branch circuit will give you essentially the same functionality as a grounding pin--though it won't ground, it will trip.  There are some other ways to add grounding--including obviously adding a ground wire, but I don't know if they're really going to change much about the sounds you're getting.  Usually noises are related to undervolts and overvolts on a shared branch circuit (look for any kind of a rogue appliance or something on the same circuit--sometimes even within your computer), and only low-freq mains hum (50/100/200hz in the UK and 60/120/240hz in the US) by the hum ground isolators.  Using a voltage meter (safely and correctly) or hiring someone to debug this, might show some faults with the outlet or with the entire electrical supply to your house (every local utility has their own dialect of power issues at different times of day as the grid is a giant living organism that requires constant care), and there are a few other ways and tools to look at the situation.

As always, if you're working with electricity directly be extremely careful--no matter how much experience you have, and if you're at all uncomfortable or lacking knowledge/experience, hire a professional--without question.  The risks are real and the cost of an electrician is nothing compared to any consequences of things going wrong!  At the end of the day, I'd rather see someone have a host of annoying computer sound issues than any risk of injury!

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Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

I changed my old outlet to GFCI and...............it didn't help.
I've read it may help with ungrounded outlets but it didn't.
My friend electrician told me about it: "you can't cheat the system this way".
So will live with that and hope to change the apartment soon...
Any suggestions or ideas still appreciated, thank you for your time and attention in advance.

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

hodor wrote:

I changed my old outlet to GFCI and...............it didn't help.
I've read it may help with ungrounded outlets but it didn't.
My friend electrician told me about it: "you can't cheat the system this way".
So will live with that and hope to change the apartment soon...
Any suggestions or ideas still appreciated, thank you for your time and attention in advance.

GFCI is good for outlet safety, but has little to do with noise. But I don't see ungrounded outlets of themselves making noise either. Anytime you plug in a two pronged plug into an outlet you are not using that "ground" anyway. The extra ground is there for safety reasons.

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

Have you tried running an extension lead to another power socket in a different room for just the speakers? Not sure in which countries this works, nor in what kinds of wiring configs/meter boxes or anything, but works well here. Best of luck there.

Pianoteq Studio Bundle (Pro plus all instruments)  - Kawai MP11 digital piano - Yamaha HS8 monitors

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

Qexl wrote:

Have you tried running an extension lead to another power socket in a different room for just the speakers? Not sure in which countries this works, nor in what kinds of wiring configs/meter boxes or anything, but works well here. Best of luck there.

I am in US and use headphones.
Once again those pops are occasional and not as horrible as I've heard on Youtube when people demonstrated REAL crackling noise.
Also those pops and crackling are sometimes when I use just my keyboard internal sounds.
Tested on 2 pairs of headphones and the same result.
I tried turn off fridge, AC, microwave but didn't help.

My friend is professional electrician and he claimed ungrounded outlets as the reason, other friend is professional sound engineer and he told be that probably my electric wires system is the reason as we eliminated PC and Pianoteq as they were thoroughly tested, well setup (my PC is powerful well enough for this task).   

I don't see any other solutions besides accepting it...BUT if you have reasonable suggestions please tell me - I am very open to it and maybe it will help.

Last edited by hodor (05-04-2023 01:42)

Re: Occasional digital crackling noise and pops due to ungrounded outlets

hodor wrote:
Qexl wrote:

Have you tried running an extension lead to another power socket in a different room for just the speakers? Not sure in which countries this works, nor in what kinds of wiring configs/meter boxes or anything, but works well here. Best of luck there.

I am in US and use headphones.
Once again those pops are occasional and not as horrible as I've heard on Youtube when people demonstrated REAL crackling noise.
Also those pops and crackling are sometimes when I use just my keyboard internal sounds.
Tested on 2 pairs of headphones and the same result.
I tried turn off fridge, AC, microwave but didn't help.

My friend is professional electrician and he claimed ungrounded outlets as the reason, other friend is professional sound engineer and he told be that probably my electric wires system is the reason as we eliminated PC and Pianoteq as they were thoroughly tested, well setup (my PC is powerful well enough for this task).   

I don't see any other solutions besides accepting it...BUT if you have reasonable suggestions please tell me - I am very open to it and maybe it will help.

Does it with internal sounds too?  Is say look at the controller...update the firmware if ones available.  You took the computer and pianoteq out of the equation using the internal sounds.

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