In the end I decided to stick with my old Yamaha while I'm still learning. I'm keeping an eye on the used market in Dublin for a Roland FP90x as: (i) I liked the PHA-50 action a lot; and (ii) I want a 'slab' piano, which I'll use with my studio monitors/headphones. I wasn't terribly impressed with the speaker experience from any of the furniture style pianos. The ones I tried were all fine but nothing amazing and it wasn't worth the space trade off for me to try to accommodate them in my house.
I should say that I've had the opportunity to play a few 'real' grand pianos in one of Dublin's music stores. Just amazing. I don't know if that experience could ever be replicated on a digital instrument - it certainly hasn't been on anything I've ever played! For me though the digital piano approach is the only one that makes sense financial or practical sense.
Best of luck finding whatever suits you!
Martin
MartzPT wrote:Thanks miiindbullets (great username btw!).
That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands. I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful. I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now. Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded. My updated list of actions to test:
- Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time): CA 701 model.
- Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time): CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
- Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it): either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
- Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos. In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.
Happy piano playing everyone!
What keyboard did you finally buy? I would like to know.
Thanks miiindbullets (great username btw!).
That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands. I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful. I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now. Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded. My updated list of actions to test:
- Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time): CA 701 model.
- Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time): CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
- Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it): either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
- Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos. In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.
Happy piano playing everyone!
What keyboard did you finally buy? I would like to know.
]]>Perhaps you could have a look at this long thread on the same topic :
"High End Actions for controllers - PHA-50 or Gran Feel or...?"
https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=9939I was also interested in the Numa, but I didn't need the internal sounds or all those pots and knobs.
I ended up opting for the SL 88 Grand, which doesn't have the same action (TP40Wood, not TP400) but costs 1,000 € less.
(88 Grand : 769€, Numa GT : 1733€).
I don't regret my purchase.
My latest tunes are made with the SL88 Grand :
I arrived at the same conclusion SL-88 Grand and am happy with it.
]]>I was also interested in the Numa, but I didn't need the internal sounds or all those pots and knobs.
I ended up opting for the SL 88 Grand, which doesn't have the same action (TP40Wood, not TP400) but costs 1,000 € less.
(88 Grand : 769€, Numa GT : 1733€).
I don't regret my purchase.
My latest tunes are made with the SL88 Grand :
Thanks a million for that information. Great to hear about your experience with the studio logic- sounds like it could be a good option for me too.
M
I went through the same process, searching for controller with a decent piano keyboard.
The Kawai CA 99 was the only one that I liked but I only care about the action and didn't want to waste money on nice cabinet, speakers and included sound.
I took a gamble and ordered the Studiologic Piano GT after reading a few detailed description of people who had played it against Kawai and others. I'm pretty satisfied with the purchase, although I don't use any of the on board sounds or features. It's always through Pianoteq. I really wish they would offer the key bed as a controller. I feel that I'm wasting half the piano.
Note however that the keys are made of polymer, not wood. Fatar makes the action and it was originally named "TP/400 WOOD" as in "wood feel". It looks like they're taken the "wood" out of the name lately. There is wood veneer to the sides of the keys which fooled me at first too. Not that I care. The keys do have a good inertia. The surface is also very comfortable, non sticky. Key repetition is fine for me (intermediate pianist) but an advanced pianist would see that they don't bounce back as fast and don't repeat as fast as a real grand action. I don't think anything below a very expensive hybrid action doest this right at this point.
The Kawai CA 99 was the only one that I liked but I only care about the action and didn't want to waste money on nice cabinet, speakers and included sound.
I took a gamble and ordered the Studiologic Piano GT after reading a few detailed description of people who had played it against Kawai and others. I'm pretty satisfied with the purchase, although I don't use any of the on board sounds or features. It's always through Pianoteq. I really wish they would offer the key bed as a controller. I feel that I'm wasting half the piano.
Note however that the keys are made of polymer, not wood. Fatar makes the action and it was originally named "TP/400 WOOD" as in "wood feel". It looks like they're taken the "wood" out of the name lately. There is wood veneer to the sides of the keys which fooled me at first too. Not that I care. The keys do have a good inertia. The surface is also very comfortable, non sticky. Key repetition is fine for me (intermediate pianist) but an advanced pianist would see that they don't bounce back as fast and don't repeat as fast as a real grand action. I don't think anything below a very expensive hybrid action doest this right at this point.
]]>https://www.audiofront.net/MIDIExpression.php
Tec Control also make them, along with others.
]]>Thanks very much for that - important information to know. Well done on figuring out a work-around - sounds like a real headache.
M
MartzPT wrote:All suggestions, cautionary tales, opinions (preferably experience-based!) welcome.
Here's a cautionary tale: I have a Kawai VPC-1 with ‘RM3 Grand II’ keyboard action. The KB is fine, but the supplied sustain pedal is terrible, with a wildly fluctuating, unstable response. To get around this I've had to use a nicer pedal (Yamaha FC3A), plug that into a different keyboard - because it won't work with the VPC - run an extension cable under the VPC stand and tell Pianoteq to listen to both keyboards. So 'teq listens to notes on the VPC, and listens to sustain via an Arturia synth KB. There are other workarounds involving modding the pedal with Arduino boards and optical sensors, but I happened to have other outboard gear that'd cover the problem.
All suggestions, cautionary tales, opinions (preferably experience-based!) welcome.
Here's a cautionary tale: I have a Kawai VPC-1 with ‘RM3 Grand II’ keyboard action. The KB is fine, but the supplied sustain pedal is terrible, with a wildly fluctuating, unstable response. To get around this I've had to use a nicer pedal (Yamaha FC3A), plug that into a different keyboard - because it won't work with the VPC - run an extension cable under the VPC stand and tell Pianoteq to listen to both keyboards. So 'teq listens to notes on the VPC, and listens to sustain via an Arturia synth KB. There are other workarounds involving modding the pedal with Arduino boards and optical sensors, but I happened to have other outboard gear that'd cover the problem.
]]>Does anyone use their digital piano as their sound system more generally (i.e. not just for playing piano)?
My current mini-home studio involves a laptop running software (mostly Helix native) for guitar and bass guitar sounds. The guitars connect to the laptop via a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface and the Scarlett's line outputs go to 2 studio monitors (KRK Rocket 5). The monitors are great for guitar but a little lacking for the bass guitar. Looking at the Kawai CA701 it seems to have a pretty significant speaker array including some large speakers for bass output. I'm not sure how "flat" the speakers are likely to be though (which is presumably relevant for using PT through any external spearers also).
So my current thinking is that I could potentially connect the Kawai CA701 speakers to the Scarlett and sell on the studio monitors. This would help justify the price and (equally important) save on space. Looking at the CA701 specs online it all seems to add up but I'm never confident about this type of thing until I actually have hands-on and set everything up (which isn't really possible in a store).
Has anyone tried something like this?
Thanks miiindbullets (great username btw!).
That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands. I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful. I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now. Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded. My updated list of actions to test:
- Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time): CA 701 model.
- Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time): CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
- Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it): either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
- Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos. In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.
Happy piano playing everyone!
That's really helpful re the Yamaha actions to look out for and for the extra info on the other brands. I have a better idea of what to test when I get to a showroom now, which is really helpful. I don't think I will be able to find anywhere to test the Numa X GT so I think I will just leave that one alone for now. Despite beginning relatively new to piano (I'm a guitar and bass player that has finally seen the light!) I'm surprised at just how strong a reaction I've had to different actions I have tried, including not liking some that are generally very well regarded. My updated list of actions to test:
- Kawai Grandfeel 3 (again - loved it the first time): CA 701 model.
- Kawai RH3 (again - didn't like it much the first time): CN 401 model or ES 920 model.
- Roland PHA-50 (I'm consistently hearing good things and I've seen some high level classical playing on it): either HP704 model or the FP90X model.
- Yamaha NWX (P515 model) and/or NW-GH (CP88 model).
It will be at least a few weeks before I get another chance to get to the only showroom in Ireland that seems to stock decent digital pianos. In the meantime I might fall back in love with my current (old Yamaha) keyboard but I doubt it as the stiffness of the action closer to the fallboard (I think that's the right word) is just killing any nuance / evenness in my playing when I need to use it.
Happy piano playing everyone!
]]>Thanks everyone for the guidance - I really appreciate how supportive this community is. I'm now trying to find a piano show-room where I can test:
...
- Yamaha (I'm not sure which action but if I play a bunch in my price-range that should help).
M
For Yamaha, I'd recommend trying the P515 (uses their NWX action) and/or CP88 (NW-GH). NWX is the same as NW-GH, but it adds escapement. I didn't have a preference between the two.
Both of the Yamaha NW actions are meant to compete with something like the Roland PHA-50, although they feel different. PHA-50 is lighter but felt slightly more "spongy", NW actions are a little heavier but felt more "snappy" to me. Both feel like premium actions.
As far as longevity goes, Yamaha and Roland have a long-standing reputation for making reliable actions that will take a beating. Roland has a 10-year warranty, IIRC. Kawai had some quality control issues recently (seems like those spiked during the pandemic), but make some of the nicest actions I've played. Fatar (StudioLogic) isn't known for reliability, but the Numa X GT action is pretty new and is their most premium action, so only time will tell. I've heard nothing but good things about it so far. Good luck!
]]>I'll report back if I eventually make a decision. Now back to practising actually playing the keyboard I have!
M
]]>If I was doing it again, I might consider the Roland midi only version (I forget the name) and better speakers than my little Presonuses, but for the next couple years my setup is just fine.
]]>