Hugh Sung talks about Steingraeber E-272, the real grand piano :
How would you model the soft playing features he talks about in the video?
It's a feature in the piano action, a adjustments that brings hammer closer, called "Mozart Rail". Not sure how really manage it in the digital field...
Maybe be able to set the modelled piano to a new velocity curves planned to be easeir just for pianissimos.
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/mozart-zug/
Beto-Music wrote:Hugh Sung talks about Steingraeber E-272, the real grand piano :
How would you model the soft playing features he talks about in the video?
Such a pristine piano sound, right up there with the very best.
"Steingraeber is the only manufacturer to have reduced the surface of the treble soundboard and to have restored its ‘classical relationship’ to short treble strings. Thus, Steingraeber strings have 27% less wood weight to set in motion. Even when softer intonation is called for, the player is rewarded with an immediate, singing resonance."
This seems to produce a very large difference in sound.
I love the balance of the Steingraeber between all ranges of the keyboard, especially the treble in relation to the rest of the keyboard, as well as its very clear, full bass.
This is a wonderful opportunity for those of us who might never be able to play or appreciate the unique qualities of a physical Steingraeber grand piano during our lives. Thank you, Modartt.
Exactly, I thought I was the only one to mention--that extra high-pitched whining sound was present in my setup. Now thankfully, (almost?) gone.
I suppose that there's no great reason to expound further on this distortion issue now that it is much reduced. But perhaps it is useful to confirm that we are talking about the same thing. In my case, if I played a lot of notes in the higher registers--particularly if the sustain was on--I would hear this very high pitched grunge to the very furthest right when using headphones--perhaps perceptually further right than the keyboard. As mentioned, it sounded to me like some of the higher overtones were producing distortion when they interacted with each other (but I could be wrong about this). It certainly wasn't my audio chain, and doesn't appear with piano VSTs from other companies.
My thoughts:
I think this Steingraeber is really Modartt's the latest and the greatest in terms of emulation technologies, so it is my "go to" instrument for now for that reason.
However, the original grand, the Steingraeber brand don't seems to become my favorite. This is the first time I hear about this name, same as the Grotrian. But Grotrian emulation have some magic about it, I would say, the soul of it surprised me a lot. Not sure how it works, but the Grotrian model had some kind of poetic qualities which make me very curious about their real grands. If this Steingraeber is a realistic emulation, which I believe it is, then to me it is a bit too kind of modern-neutral-"in your face" sort of a sound. Not bad at all, but still lacks some intimate personality I wish it could have.
All that being said, my biggest congratulations to the Modartt team regarding this model.
Bought this today. The 'Steingraeber Warm' preset is stunning. Probably the best digital piano sound I've ever played or heard. It sounds extremely alive, both warm and clear, with plenty of that elusive 'woody' quality, and is extremely versatile.
I actually feel this particular preset is superior to any other Pianoteq acoustic pianos so far, including the Steinways. I even struggle to think of a real instrument which I've personally played and which sounds as good and is as responsive. At any rate, one would have to pay very serious money indeed to acquire an instrument of this quality.
As with other Pianoteq instruments, excellent DA-converters and speakers do help to make the Steingraeber shine.
Even some of the hard complainers of Pianoworld are less critic this time. Some of them (who always made critics to modelled technology) now says it's the first time they liked pianoteq. Of course the ultra hard critics will not be pleased yet, but we can see clearly that as new versions arrive, more people liked pianoteq than before.
Listened to this new model and bought it within a few minutes! It's absolutely beautiful. In my opinion one of the best ever from Modart. Smooth, warm, vivid.
I told myself not to buy any more music gear for a while (work slow for the next few months) but - couldn't resist it. My child will have to go without food for a bit, lol.
Well done Pianoteq team. Off to play more!
The Blüthner was on my wish list for a while,
so I bought it together with the Steingraeber...
But I just can't stop playing the Steingraeber...
I really love it.
Is there any brief description somewhere what each Steingraeber preset means? Only one has E-272 in the name, what about the others? Also, any ideas how to use the Mozart rail? By the way, I love how the Steinway D Pianist magazine preset sounds now through my Roland. It was made available somewhere on this forum a while ago.
There is a description of each preset in the preset manager. The Mozart rail is implemented as a pedal.
Piano with two manuals ?
Take a look in this video about Steingraber E-272 with transducer, when he speak about it :
https://youtu.be/YQuq3iet9zA?t=294
They used a sampled version of this two manual piano, to play through the transducer piano soundboard.
Torero wrote:Exactly, I thought I was the only one to mention--that extra high-pitched whining sound was present in my setup. Now thankfully, (almost?) gone.
I suppose that there's no great reason to expound further on this distortion issue now that it is much reduced. But perhaps it is useful to confirm that we are talking about the same thing. In my case, if I played a lot of notes in the higher registers--particularly if the sustain was on--I would hear this very high pitched grunge to the very furthest right when using headphones--perhaps perceptually further right than the keyboard. As mentioned, it sounded to me like some of the higher overtones were producing distortion when they interacted with each other (but I could be wrong about this). It certainly wasn't my audio chain, and doesn't appear with piano VSTs from other companies.
It sounds like the same issue to me. I think it is gone now--I may have some previously recorded midi and mp3 so I could check further, but no high priority given this well-timed and excellent upgrade.
Bought this today. The 'Steingraeber Warm' preset is stunning.
Wonderful indeed! Thanks for your recommendation, decision made!
I bought this new piano and the Rucker's harpsichord. They are both beautiful and I particularly love the piano. I wish to thank Modartt and the Beta team for all their hard work - thank you guys, I really appreciate you all and your contributions.
Kindest Regards
Chris
Congratulations to the Modartt team!
This new modeled piano is a very great success, and it's a real pleasure to play with!
I have never heard the sound of Steingraeber grand pianos before, but I have to say that I begin to like their unique flavor. I feel a lot of clarity and warmth.
Here, two audio excerpts of our first recording tests with the Pianoteq’s Steingraeber in preparation of a Pierre Wolf’s project for 2019: https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopi...60#p954760
Just played the Steingraeber one hour yesterday through the onboard speakers of my CA97, and I've been positively surprised since I've never been satisfiyed with the way PTQ sounds in my CA97 (and I don't want to add external speakers to it), but this Steingraeber sounded so good, which got me to try the other pianos (STW D, B, Blüthner.. etc) and I found out this time I was happy to play them through the internal speakers..
My conclusion, the sound engine in PTQ has been generally improved or it's just the placebo effect after I played this beautiful Steingraeber patch...
I'm playing Pianoteq through my CA97 and have all of a sudden found it to work wondefully well. The change happend when I upgraded from Stage to Standard, but in version 6.1. It sounded completely different. I'm not sure why as the output sound is meant to be identical but it is now a pleasure to use.
Hey guys I have a confession, I never liked Grotrian, even in the official demos it sounds bad to me.
And every other model sounds terrific in the official demos.
Now I feel I can admit it because it seems that Modartt done such a fine jobe with the new Steingraeber, I'm listing to the demos and it sound like I'm in a room with a piano and someone play on it.
I hope I'm not insulting anyone with this Grotrian remark but it was hard for me to save it in the guts all this time, when I saw all the enthusiasm about Grotrian from so many users and I couldn't understand why they like it so much.
It sound like with the new Steingraeber Modartt took Grotrian and fixed everything that was wrong about it.
You probably wouldn't like a real life Grotrian either then.
You probably wouldn't like a real life Grotrian either then.
I wouldn't be surprised if you are correct.
I had a real Steingraeber for 10 years by the way, big upright, old one, almost 100 years old.
Me to I'm not enthousiast for Gotrian but I think also it's because a piano isn't universal and we have a personnal taste. I prefer Steinway to Bosendorfer and I don't know why many people like the Ravenscroft from VI-Labs, I doesn't like play this piano.
But this Steingraeber is excellent and perhaps sound the most realistic of the Pianoteq collection.
The reverse of your sentence may could be true.
Someone could dislike a real Grotrian but likes the pianoteq version after a very carefull cosumization in version Pro.
You probably wouldn't like a real life Grotrian either then.
I just purchased the Studio Pro Bundle on Friday 6/22/18, which is supposed to come with "all instruments" and all that come out for a year. I find the Steingraeber under Demos, rather than with the acoustic pianos.
I took Evil Dragon's advice from earlier in the thread "In this case, go to Pianoteq's Options->About->Update licence." However, though I did that several times, it didn't unlock the Steingraeber.
Has anyone had a similar problem and gotten a resolution? I've written to Modartt but no answer (to be fair, I wrote them late on a Friday, their time, and I might well get a response on Monday).
Thanks in advance!
I just tried it out and it has a nice combination of clarity and a certain percussiveness in the higher register that reminds me of the historical instruments, with the refined and big sound of a modern grand. I find the bass to be not as resounding and more rich in overtones as in some other models but I guess that's just the way this grand sounds.
As mentioned above, Steingraeber is quite active in exploring new technologies like bridge agraffes and carbon soundboards. They provide quite a distinctive sound with long sustain and rich overtones. It would have been nice to get a taste of those sounds as well! Maybe a salon grand equipped with these to complement the concert grand? Well, one can always wish for the future.
So, if anyone knows “which” controller keyboard Pianoteq used, I’d be really interested .... Part of that interest is because the action itself on a Steingraeber is so uniquely tuned to the instrument.
The classical demos aren't made with a conventional controller keyboard. They used a Yamaha (concert?) grand with Disklavier to record performance data. I don't know about other demos.
I just purchased the Studio Pro Bundle on Friday 6/22/18, which is supposed to come with "all instruments" and all that come out for a year. I find the Steingraeber under Demos, rather than with the acoustic pianos.
I took Evil Dragon's advice from earlier in the thread "In this case, go to Pianoteq's Options->About->Update licence." However, though I did that several times, it didn't unlock the Steingraeber.
Has anyone had a similar problem and gotten a resolution? I've written to Modartt but no answer (to be fair, I wrote them late on a Friday, their time, and I might well get a response on Monday).
So Monday arrived, and now doing Evil Dragon's trick works. The difference is that the Steingraeber is listed on this page now: https://www.pianoteq.com/user_area?s=products. I guess a tech support person went in and added it to my list of owned products. Hope this helps anyone else in a similar situation.
Hi folks,
A just recorded rendition of Chopin's Nocturne Op.9 No.1 with the Steingraeber
Enjoy!
No, indeed there were some adjustments to all other models as well. It's in the changelog.
I'm a bit surprised.
In another thread I worked with *default* settings of PTQ to have standardized conditions for measurements. This implies *default* linear velocity mapping.
By this accident I noticed, that the linear velocity has become much mor playable with my Kawai-Controller, than in the past. Especially with the new Steingraeber.
The velocity-response seems to have changed in newer versions of PTQ so that my hard taylored curve is not the best fit any longer (too responsive/bright).
Is it just my impression??
All I find is changelog 6.2.0 (2018/06/13)
...
Minor revoicing of all grand pianos.
Pianissimo behaviour improved for all grand pianos.
...
and some statements from others in this thread, that could go in this direction:
"BUT I can attest that I've adjusted back the velocity curve to almost linear"
"I'm playing Pianoteq through my CA97 and have all of a sudden found it to work wondefully well"
Just my imagination?
Thanks
Just my imagination?
Same impression for me: with the last version the factory velocity curve seems more bright than before. I also used a little brighter setting before but now, the linear one from 0,0 to 127.127 is ok. I even tend to soften it a little bit
Agree with groovy and stamkorg. I also have reset my Kawai velocity curve to a straight line from the tailored curve I previously used.
I hoped to find different velocity-mappings in the analog output of Bluethner Player vs. Steingraeber Player (factory default, all effects off). But no evidence:
Maybe I need your help in interpretation.
Scenario was:
I created a MIDI-file with increasing/crescendo velocities of middle-C (note C3) from 7 to 126 in sixteen steps.
I loaded this MIDI in Pianoteq v6.2.2 and rendered it to a stereo-wav. One for Bluethner and one for Steingraeber.
In stereo-recordings L und R are different, so I splitted the tracks and measured the average-level of the first 0.5 s of each tone (Analyze-tool "Contrast" in Audacity).
One thing is special. With Bluethner channel L is much louder than R. With Steingraeber it is vice versa, right channel is much louder. Just a result of the mic-positions in PTQ?
Another observation: starting from around velocity 70 Bluethner diverges from Steingraeber. The stereo-sum of Bluethner (dark- and light-blue) gets louder than Steingraeber (dark- and light-red).
Perhaps you should've used the Mono output mode instead of using the mic positioning, you'd probably get more precise graphs? Obviously mic positioning is not going to be identical across all piano models, due to various reasons.
"Mono output mode"
What's that?
Another option in the Output dropdown menu instead of "Sound recording":
Ok, you mean "Monophonic" recording mode. Wasn't sure, if you meant just selecting output 1 or 2 in the mix table.
Good idea to use the single microphone of Monophonic mode, thanks. But it is not clear, which position it has in each Grand preset.
I repeated it with the Monophonic output and the result is the new green and yellow curve:
Bluethner Mono (green) matches the L-channel of Bluethner soundrecording.
Steingraeber Mono (yellow) dito with L-channel of Steingraeber soundrecording.
So it seems in Monophonic mode just the left mic is used and has the same room position as in soundrecording.
Because L of Steingraeber has ~ 5 dB lower level than L of Bluethner, the same drop results when switching from Bluethner Mono to Steingraeber Mono.
I see no evidence for different velocity-responses of the output-level of Bluethner and Steingraeber.
Hence in the moment I have no explanation, why both instruments respond differently to a given velocity-curve (the "linear" for example).
Maybe the sound-"coloration" is more velocity-responsive in one of the instruments.
Or the asymmetric and reverse level in both stereo-channels has an influence. For example, sometimes hearing is degraded more on one ear and differently balanced channels are having more effect then.
The result of this is a bit worrying. I'm used to a frozen velocity-curve in my PTQ-setup.
A better solution seems to be to save individual velocity-curves to each preset separately. And not just the velocity maps, but also the other maps, like Sustain pedal map (I'm using continuous sustain controller). But this more complicated and effort than it should be.
Velocity induced hassles remain the Nr.1-problem in virtual-piano technology in my opinion.
Cheers
I do understand the concern and the performance ideas behind it but in RL don't you get accustomed to the piano you are playing instead of fiddling each time with their action to adjust it to your own taste?
I do understand the concern and the performance ideas behind it but in RL don't you get accustomed to the piano you are playing instead of fiddling each time with their action to adjust it to your own taste?
to a point...
though when i had my real-world 1790s fortepiano i found myself doing quite a bit of fiddling on a regular basis... 'one of the intimate joys of working with an instrument vs a typewriter i suppose...
RL (Real Life)
Real Life is, that often velocity-response is far behind the quality, that sound-engineering has reached.
Just watch short performances on TV and how often young musicians are sitting behind their shiny Nord or something and the velocity-dynamic is so lousy, that only zapping helps
Pianoteq has so many great piano sounds, but they suffer, when a velocity-response just fits (at best) to one special Grand, but not to the vintage Electric-Pianos or the Grand Piano of the last year. Often people are not even aware, that it is just the velocity-response and not the modelled sound, that is flimsy.
I agree we have to reach the simplicity of acoustic pianos in this regard. A resort could be some kind of "Autocalibration", which recognizes the weaknesses of a MIDI-controller/Instrument/Human combination on a statistical basis.
Because factory-instruments can vary, one or more curves (when played with different MIDI-controllers) should be saveable with each preset.
Okay, that's Dream Life