Thanks, I couldn't find anything in the specifications that mentioned it.
Two sources:
1) the specification, under the heading "Connectors" lists: USB (MIDI, Memory, For Update)
2) the UK video (the Roland reps talks about updating
Lawrence
Now that we have pianoteq-3.0, what about someone with skiled musical ears try to recreate some segments of V-Piano demonstration video, for comparison?
I don't know what the point of that would be.
The Roland V-Piano is simply too expensive, especially coming in during this terrible economic period. I don't think they will sell enough to keep it in production - just like the Korg Oasys, which has now gone out of production.
I'm guessing that they started R&D for the V-piano back in 2002 when things were better financially, they tooled up to produce the hardware and decided to go through with it. Personally, if I had been head of Roland I would have killed the product before it got to the hardware stage.
Modarrt beat them to it - actually Modarrt beat everybody to it. And now with Pianoteq 3.0 we can see that they are again ahead of everyone else's software piano game.
Dave, you said it very well. The V-Piano might have been a good idea in times when hardware generally was much more expensive (think some x.000 bucks for a simple synthesizer), but with the advent of cheap mobile processing power, things have changed very much.
In the corporate world, it seems unthinkable that companies like Roland would ever downsize their business, but that may well be what the future holds in store for them. If that happens, it will be mainly because they have missed the boat.
In instrument technology, the days of expensive hardware battleships are basically gone. It does not even seem unlikely that acoustic pianos will be affected by this trend.
And yes -- Modartt have really nailed it with this upgrade. I am only beginning to learn how good it is. Again, a revelation. Hats off, guys!
Right, there's no point in the exercise, but let's do it anyway. (no I am not volunteering
I'd actually like the names of all identified works in the demo too - some *very* nice music in there.
Greg.
JayPi wrote:Just try pianoteq with a pair of real good headphones.
HD595s?
I've no experience with those, I use an AKG 240K.
Now that we have pianoteq-3.0, what about someone with skiled musical ears try to recreate some segments of V-Piano demonstration video, for comparison?
The main reason, why this exersize wouldn't have any valid expression, even in case of success is:
You need the midi-data i.e. the implement midifile. Otherwise you can`t tell, how the simulation reacts.
I'm pretty sure, that - maybe with the help of some external filters - you can create a recording witch sounds no different to 95 percent of the listeners.
Apart from that, I wonder how many people here do have testet the V - piano. I just know it from the internet.
I think it's concerning if we are now talking of a program copying a program copying reality, isn't it?
I always refer to the real thing, when I make comparisons. Try different grands in your piano shop round the corner and get a feeling for it.
Then you go and really test the V - piano. And don't get too impressed by a recording, which I assume is specially designed and mixed for internet purpose (I also wonder how many just listened to it through trashy laptop speakers). When you carefully listen to the performance demo on Rolands page (with studio monitors or good headphones), then you'll hear, that a pretty strong delay effect ist employed to give the base-region this punchy sound. Don't be too impressed.
Same effects on pianoteq and most people won't spot any difference.
Same effects on pianoteq and most people won't spot any difference.
I think so too, plus I believe PT offers more options (different models, including the add-ons)
The V-Piano demos again sound like that typical 'bangy' Roland piano, and I suspect that's it basically.
Hadn't you tested Pianoteq 3.0 yet????????
It's good to see some competition. In the demos, I hear roland v-piano to have more natural sound than pianoteq. I'm eager to see the end product of pianoteq's new version. Hopefully it'll be more natural than the Bscale.mp3.
Hopefully it's got a preset for "American Piano"
Strange, those clips do not impress much:
The upper registers sound good to me, and the lower registers also sound pretty good, but not as good as they do in the Roland demo video clips. The middle registers sound very synthetic though, don't they! Still, I'm surprised at how often recordings of *real* pianos can *also* sound synthetic.
Greg.
I played it. The sound was pretty good (not worth the money though) but I was mostly impressed by the keyboard. I think it safe to assume that this has to be the best keyboard ever made. A true joy! Too bad there are no other controllers.
I see the infame middle register problem seen universal in modelled technologies.
The video demonstration seens bether than those 48khz 16 bits mp3.
Strange... maybe audio visual perception take away a bit our atention from the sound, since we pay atention to the sound and image togther.
But overall the Roland sounds superb, but part of that is presumably the superior reverb. (I'm just using Pianoteq with it's inbuilt reverb, which I don't think is very good. I instantly notice the better reverbs in my physical digital piano when I switch to it)
Greg.
Maybe the Pianoteq people should get together with this company, because this reverb sounds VERY good !
http://www.audiodamage.com/effects/prod...?pid=AD023
And the price is very OK too
Today I had the chance to test some digital pianos and there was also the Roland V-Piano. I tried this (and Kawai MP8II and MP5). Under these three the V-Piano was by far the best one in both the keyboard and the sound. But I always heard something like a very high ringing tone when playing on the V-Piano. That was very strange, but maybe there is a way to solve this with the many options you have.
So this instrument is very close to a real piano: In the view of keyboard quality, sound quality and (that´s bad) also if you look at its weight.
As a conclusion I would say: 5400 EUR is too much for such a piano when I can get pianoteq for 250 EUR. And pianoteq sounds very good to me. I´d like to have the keyboard of the V-Piano without the sound engine for less than 2000 EUR. Then it would be something I would buy and use with pianoteq.
As a conclusion I would say: 5400 EUR is too much for such a piano when I can get pianoteq for 250 EUR. And pianoteq sounds very good to me. I´d like to have the keyboard of the V-Piano without the sound engine for less than 2000 EUR. Then it would be something I would buy and use with pianoteq.
Hi!
The keyboard for the V-piano has the spec: PHAII with escapement and artficial ivory keytops.
The keyboard of the Roland RD700GX Stagepiano has the same specification. It's about 2200 EUR.
The keyboard of the Roland FP7 semiprofessional Stagepiano is also the same but without ivory...
(Thats about 1600 EUR)
There are also Homepianos with these keyboards, that are probably more expensive.
I took this information from memory, check the specs, for precise information.
HTH,
Peter
No, as I see it, the V-Piano has PHA-III whereas the others mentioned have PHA-II.
yeah I read the Roland site and you are correct, dnv
Talking about healthy competition, I've tried the demo of "Supreme Piano" (by Sound Magic) physical modelled piano, and for a "head inside the piano" experience this is the best one I've tried so far. It seems to be very much a work in progress, but the basic sound is excellent IMHO. The demo recordings on their web site don't do it justice btw.
Greg.
Talking about healthy competition, I've tried the demo of "Supreme Piano" (by Sound Magic) physical modelled piano, and for a "head inside the piano" experience this is the best one I've tried so far. It seems to be very much a work in progress, but the basic sound is excellent IMHO. The demo recordings on their web site don't do it justice btw.
Greg.
I tried the "Supreme Piano" also. Greg I agree with you, I thought the overall sound was quite impressive and CPU usage is low. I'll list the cons that I found:
- sympathetic resonance is limited only to pedal-down - no resonance for individually held notes.
- The bass notes drop off suddenly after a short time whereas PT fades out gracefully.
- I tried my sostenuto pedal and got something that sounds like half-damping.
- Sustain functionality seems to be on/off rather than continuous (unless you use your sostenuto pedal)
- Repeating pedal-held notes doesn't seem to be modelled. If you play a loud note in the low register and repeat it with a softer one, the new note will choke off the previous one - very unnatural sounding.
- Limited parameter tweaking compared to PT - No mic positioning, etc.
For the "introductory price of €199" (http://www.kvraudio.com/news/11787.html), they have a little bit of work to do yet IMO.
Chris
That have 335MB for just 3 pianos. So it's not full modelled, but just sampled and modelled combined.
That's why resonance effects was reported like a crap.
They add this graphic about CPU usage:
It's kind like I say to you:
This car it's economic, a very good option.
They add this graphic about CPU usage:
In regards to the graph, keep the old saying in mind:
"You can't get something for nothing".
This is particularly true with piano sounds - if the CPU isn't working hard, it's not putting out anything useful.
For the "introductory price of €199" (http://www.kvraudio.com/news/11787.html), they have a little bit of work to do yet IMO.
Agreed, and I can't believe they are charging for it in it's current state.
Even with all it's faults though, I really enjoyed playing it a lot.
Sorry for wasting some people's time though. ;^)
Greg.
All said and done, it just goes to show where the market is heading.
Where will it all be in a few years time, when everyone is producing updated versions; sorting out their imperfections? How much will the sound improve?
Roland, Supreme Pianos, Pianoid, Who else will enter the arena?
Only time will tell.
Remember 'Hare and the Tortoise'? You just can't go to sleep.
That have 335MB for just 3 pianos. So it's not full modelled, but just sampled and modelled combined.
That's why resonance effects was reported like a crap.
I wonder if there's even any modeling at all. In this thread at KVR (http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=254437), the Supreme Pianos author chimes in to deny that his software uses samples, and insists that it is 100% modeled. (This is after forum members figure out that the software was built with SynthEdit, using Chris Kerry's Sample System2 module. The piano sound is layered from three sample sets: damped, undamped, and sympathetic resonance.)
Whoops! Sorry - I should have started an *unhealthy* competition topic for Supreme Pianos!
Greg. (feeling like a dunderhead)
Here's the V-Piano sounding excellent IMHO:
http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/rola...n-09/97333
Much much better than in those Sonicstate recordings discussed earlier in this thread. I'm baffled.
Greg.
seems really good
but to me roland sound has always been too plastic since RD series, and it seems they are on the same way..
what about this one??
I think that rather than a competitor could be the perfect PT's partner
Interesting:
And the competition goes on?
http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/~bbank/demo.html
http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/~bbank/demo1.wav
http://www.devine-machine.com/index.php...mp;lang=en
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/piano/
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/piano/samples.shtml
http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=31
http://mrray-vst-electric-piano.software.informer.com/
http://www.ableton.com/tension
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/loungelizard.php
http://www.hvsynthdesign.com/kymax.php
http://soundbytes.de/?music-en
Here's another V-Piano clip, and in this one it DOES sound synthetic in places, just like in those direct recordings at Sonicstate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Kl-luQil8
(George Duke playing the V-Piano)
At the moment I think that the V-Piano is *capable* of sounding quite inferior to Pianoteq.
Greg.
This is an in teresting but long (>100 postings) thread.
This makes me wonder: Would it be possible to re-organize this User Forum in a way that the newest messages will appear on top of page one and the first messages at the bottom of the last page ? This would make it easier to find and read the latest postings, espeacially in long threads.
Please ?
This is an in teresting but long (>100 postings) thread.
This makes me wonder: Would it be possible to re-organize this User Forum in a way that the newest messages will appear on top of page one and the first messages at the bottom of the last page ? This would make it easier to find and read the latest postings, espeacially in long threads.
Please ?
Why not just click the "latest posts" link under each thread title?
m.tarenskeen wrote:This is an in teresting but long (>100 postings) thread.
This makes me wonder: Would it be possible to re-organize this User Forum in a way that the newest messages will appear on top of page one and the first messages at the bottom of the last page ? This would make it easier to find and read the latest postings, espeacially in long threads.
Please ?Why not just click the "latest posts" link under each thread title?
You're right. I never tried that yet. Stupid me :-)
Unfortunately the ame Roland impress everyone.
Pianoteq have no strong name or strong marketing to get the publicity that V-piano got. That's why V-piano get so much fuss quickly.
V-piano also have not the woodness that we heard in real pianos when recorded in some conditions.
I want woodness...
What about update this comparison using the new pianoteq model K1 ?
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...Ascale.mp3
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...Bscale.mp3
This is particularly true with piano sounds - if the CPU isn't working hard, it's not putting out anything useful.
Yeah, you can't really "simplify" a complex sound-producing process like a piano or a guitar. Therefore, the CPUs better be busting their humps, or they're just playing poker in the break room while the TV drones on and on at high volume...
This car it's economic, a very good option.
I CAN'T FEEL MY LEGS!!!!! WHAT have you DONE with my LEGS, you sick freaks...
Well, it has been a while since the V-piano came out.
Pianoteq has been through a few updates, laptops have become faster and cheaper, etc.
I see somewhat separate markets, but from MY point of view (how I spend my money, etc.)
a) I don't want or need MORE hardware, e.g. a_NOTHER keyboard.
b) I will continue to buy faster laptops with more power (faster and/or more cores) every few years, for other reasons.
c) I do NOT want to lock several thousand dollars into a dedicated instrument that is competitive with "soft" instruments today and for only the next few months but will rapidly become "quaint" over time.
I would rather spend less NOW and (optionally) buy extensions or enhancements over time.
I don't see the GP computer burdened by the "other processes", they can be shutdown easily enough, e.g. network listening, background virus protection, indexing, background de-frag, etc. Most of these don't need to be run if there isn't (new)file writes to the hard disk.
As to whether or not there will be competitive modeling on laptops ?
I think there might be a "killer synth" in the works somewhere that will at some point swamp pianoteq's niche.
A general purpose synth, not tied to "struck string instruments".
I think there might be a "killer synth" in the works somewhere that will at some point swamp pianoteq's niche.
A general purpose synth, not tied to "struck string instruments".
Hmmm... Did you read the Some "heretic" Questions thread?
Anyway:
Qui trop embrasse, mal étreint
Grasp all, lose all
Jack of all trades, master of none
...
You know, I started reading this thread from the beginning and it took a while to realize that the weird stuff I was reading was because the thread is over a year old, and someone resurrected it!
No offense intended, but my suggestion is to bury the dang thing and start a new thread. Perhaps Modartt could close an old topic after say, a year?
Perhaps Modartt could close an old topic after say, a year?
No! Thread necromancy is the best thing ever!
No! Thread necromancy is the best thing ever!
Thread necromancy? Cool
OK, I'm keeping this one alive.
There is an interesting thread at PW about Ivory II - as to when it will be available.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...ost1454033
My last post there hi-lights one of the problems - multiple values of damper pedal control.
While many of you have keyboards that generate ON/OFF values or perhaps even half-pedal values (64), many Roland keyboards generate the full range of 128 values (zero to 127). There may be other makes that do, but I'm not aware of them.
In any event, Pianoteq does not stumble at all with the MIDI files generated by my Roland, so for me, there is no competition to PT.
Glenn
OK, I'm keeping this one alive.
There is an interesting thread at PW about Ivory II - as to when it will be available.
Thanks for the entertainment, Glenn! ROFLMAO, too!!!
(ANOTHER delay??? Sounds like they really had no idea where they were going when they undertook this "upgrade." I guess that the dollars danced in front of the sense. )
Regarding Ivory II, I'm not convinced that it'll be a significant improvement over the first version, regardless of how they do sympathetic resonance and pedalling, if they base the new version on the same samples as the original version.
Unquestionably, there are some good things about Ivory. But...
After purchasing it, I REALLY tried to enjoy Ivory in spite of tonal inconsistencies from sample to sample in some registers of the Steinway D and Yamaha C7 that weren't obvious from their online demos. Finally, it got so distracting, that I stopped using Ivory altogether. IMO there are some samples that should never have passed a quality inspection, or at the very least, should have been corrected and improved as time went on. As far as I know, that's never happened since Ivory was first released several years ago. And I somehow doubt it'll happen now.
So for anyone who's a discriminating player, I'd strongly suggest finding some way to try out Ivory II before purchasing it.
I think the comments by CyberGene and Dewster are worth considering, and may indicate the basic problem; a sample is static, and introducing more complexity (half-pedaling and sympathetic resonance) will not make a static sample dynamic. Complexity only serves to increase the number of problems to be solved.
As a (still) practicing engineer, I apply science and technology in my work. I have a friend that thinks technology will enable humanity to overcome problems like energy and food shortages. My reply to him is that technology is causing the problems, so don't expect technology to provide solutions. Take a moment to reflect on the Gulf of Mexico situation - it's essentially a problem of technology gone bad. Yes, humans are the immediate cause, but without the technology, there wouldn't have been the problem.
Glenn
As a user of Ivory Piano (including Italian Grand) I can only say: There are some Notes that represent the quality of an Steinway D (don't know the Fazzioli but don't like the sample set very much) but overall I can't play the Samples since 3.0 PTQ any more. From time to time I go back to Ivory for a trial but it doesn't work for me. I had some sessions with a cello player and used a modified M3 preset and it was a great joy.
As I played many different Bösendorfers (Chippendale, 290 etc.) I couldn't even get a clue why one of the Ivory-presets is called Bösendorfer.
Because of the treat is "healthy competition":
I've played Roland V and the new Yamaha CP1 and was very happy coming back home to my system with PTQ 3.6. There was only one preset in Roland V that was convincing and I would buy Roland V for that (and some other hardware features) if I hadn't PTQ.
One big change in performance and sound for me,was also an upgrade to an RME PCIe Card and a new set of speakers a friend of mine and me developed based on an SEAS coincidence speaker.( http://www.google.at/imgres?imgurl=http...s%3Disch:1 a similar construction I found in the web)
Maybe interesting for someone: I use very direct sounding player perspective overdone presets while playing, and often end up with the more distant sounding presets of a listeners quality while mixing.
So this shows how diffuse the awareness of the right sound is.
As I had to record Benjamin Schmidt, an Austrian Violinist, and asked him how he would like to have his Violin sounding, he answered:"Nobody else would like to hear the Violin the way I hear it , so I shall record it as I think it's the best."
After all it is the way an Instrument makes US play, and there is no doubt that STILL a real good crafted Grand Piano opens a world of expressive possibilities, but second best is PTQ for me. So the instrumental qualities of PTQ are the magic of this software, and if it could reach the original some day it will be a "Fiesta".
I've no doubt that moddart is still not satisfied with the momentary result (as an interim stage the should for sure) , compared to the origin, as we all hear the differences. Who wouldn't?
But for me, PTQ reached the point where I turned my back to Piano-Samples, and don't expect too much revolutionary resurections from that technology. Allthough there are some fantastic sounding Recordings of single Notes out there from VSL to East West.
And if I need some single notes in an arrangment I use them. Putting tons of Reverb on it and use them. But I don't wanna PLAY them any longer! Just use them!
I do love to read all the comments on this forum, because they represent the variaties of requirements on a piano software.
And of course I will take a deep listen to a new Ivory II, maybe I'm wrong and it will be the piano cracker. I fear not. I'm waiting for that event to happen for 20 years, but the only piano cracker was the guy who played it. Me (read it as- I!)
cheers, Heinke!
Take a moment to reflect on the Gulf of Mexico situation - it's essentially a problem of technology gone bad. Yes, humans are the immediate cause, but without the technology, there wouldn't have been the problem.
Alternatively, they could've spilt the oil off the coast of somewhere like Nigeria, where incidents of this magnitude happen every couple of years. Apparently 'poor black African country with not much media attention' = no problem either!
if they base the new version on the same samples as the original version.
FWIW, I saw a presentation video clip on Ivory II and the presenter said that there are more soft layers. Whether they actually took more samples, or just created them by processing existing samples, I am not sure.
Greg.
