Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

Uhhnnn... Do you know if Bosendorfer have ever endorsed a sampler?
There are many samplers for many famous piano brands, but few have got endorsment.


DonSmith wrote:

I think Modartt should focus their efforts on working with and getting the endorsement from the piano makers. Imagine having this sound if they worked with Bosendorfer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhEpvIpe-6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfKCcbRb9HQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSKKq4RKdxI

Again, listen to the range of sound from one instrument.

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

Pianophile wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:
Ross wrote:

Why need for sample rates > 44 kHz at all? Human can't listen higher 20 kHz. So, Nyquist's theorem guarantee that 40 kHz sampling rate is sufficient. Why need for 96, 192 kHz?

As mentioned above, when you have twice or four times as much samples in the same amount of time, you can represent very short transient changes (like attack of a drum hit, or the noise when a hammer hits the string) that much more precisely.

I'm sorry EvilDragon, but that just isn't accurate. Recordings at 44 Khz can record any audio signal with perfect accuracy, short transients and all. The only reason why higher samples are useful has to do with the increased headroom for anti-aliasing low-pass filters.

As for Pianoteq and higher sample rates in general: people should do a double blind test to find out whether they're actually able to accurately identify higher sample rates (using a good DA converter). I'm pretty certain that virtually no one will.


+1
I found this article that convinced me. http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html It seems to suggest that even the headroom for filters is not required in this digital age.

Moreover the article suggests that the use of much higher frequencies can result in distortions "ultrasonics" generated by the hardware itself that are downshifted into the audible range.  It even suggests that 16-bit depth is quite enough. I personally am going with 24 bit/ 48 KHz and I am quite pleased, I use a PreSonus Audiobox 22VSL with AKG 240 MK II headphones.

In view of this article the differences that are heard by some could be subtle distortions that are introduced by using 96 KHz.

I am neither sound engineer nor piano professional, still learning, but after reading several articles on the subject, I trust this article.

Last edited by twl (02-12-2014 16:14)

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

Physicists write:

For general audio programming or playback, 96kHz or 192hHz is simply useless.

Indeed, the Nyquist theorem tells you that a signal can be exactly reproduced given that the sample rate is greater than the highest frequency contained in the original signal.

The "excuse" of the slope of analog filter required after digital to analog conversion is no longer valid with today's converters. Nowadays, most converters use oversampling reconstruction so that analog filters are no longer an issue.

So why do we use higher sampling rate?

The main point for higher sampling rate is just marketing: people still believe their intuitions on this matter.

Combine velocity curves: http://output.jsbin.com/cukeme/9

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

96k definitely makes sense when mixing ITB. Please read THIS article.

http://varietyofsound.wordpress.com/201...ing-rates/

Makes sense. Of course, this doesn't relate much to Pianoteq's processing, since it's not really dependent on aliasing artifacts that non-linear processes like compression and distortion effects are, but still, there is a lot of validity to it.

There have been countless threads on this topic online. There's a reason why for mastering purposes higher sample rates are recommended (and used day-in day-out in studios all over the world). Think about it. Non-linear processing => possible aliasing => higher sample rate combats this by pushing the aliasing limit higher.

Also note that some audio interfaces (like RME) definitely are fine-tuned to work better at certain sample rates (in case of RME, 96k). This not only reduces round-trip latency (which, in case of Pianoteq is GOOD, you want the lowest latency possible!), but definitely improves the audio that it outputs. Heard it first-hand.

Last edited by EvilDragon (02-12-2014 16:44)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

For in-DAW Audio processing with pluging, yes. For listening, no.

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

Pianophile wrote:

For listening, no.

Depends what you're listening. If you're listening a file that's 96k/24, you don't want to listen that at 44.1k/48k using OS's lousy SRC... You want to listen that at its original SR.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

delt wrote:

Still, i agree with kalessin that from a mechanical point of view, for each note, other than playing it soft or loud (and the pedals) there's not 56 different ways of playing it: you press down on a key, and then you release the key.

This is true, but what counts is how you play a series of notes and groups of notes in context.  It's known as "artistry of performance."

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...D_Demo.mp3


Pianoteq 5 Blüthner sounds really really really good

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

That sounds very nice indeed.

Whenever I play the Bluethner myself, the D directly above middle C sounds unpleasant and unrealistic to me. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for middle C and C#. Editing the spectrum profile helps but I can't make it disappear entirely. For me it ruins a lot of the fun in playing the Bluethner since they're such frequently used notes.

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

Pianophile wrote:

That sounds very nice indeed.

Whenever I play the Bluethner myself, the D directly above middle C sounds unpleasant and unrealistic to me. The same goes, to a lesser extent, for middle C and C#. Editing the spectrum profile helps but I can't make it disappear entirely. For me it ruins a lot of the fun in playing the Bluethner since they're such frequently used notes.

Is it the same with earphones?  It could be your speaker or amplification system.  Acoustic pianos are not perfect either.

Pianoteq Pro 7.x - Kubuntu Linux 19.10 - Plasma Desktop - Hamburg Steinway

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

It's not the the speakers or DA converter; they're both very high-quality and extremely accurate (Violectric and PSI Audio).
It's not about imperfection either. Those three notes just don't sound right to me and it has something to do with weird-sounding partials. It's a shame since the rest of the Bluethner does sound good to my ears.

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

SteveKK wrote:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...D_Demo.mp3


Pianoteq 5 Blüthner sounds really really really good

This to me sounds a bit too detuned, and with a metallic edge... Very realistic, but like a badly treated piano...

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

...which fits perfectly to the composition, IMHO.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

EvilDragon wrote:

...which fits perfectly to the composition, IMHO.


I like to think of Chopin's music as living work of art, and not as relicts from the past, but I understand what you mean...

Re: Let's discuss Blüthner

kalessin wrote:

I would be very interested in hearing how a 'good' player can influence the sound of the instrument just by playing, i.e. just by changing the way they press the keys. It is, in my very humble opinion, simply impossible.


Likewise, I agree with kalessin's assertion that changing the way one depresses the keys will not influence the sound of the piano, at least not for an isolated single note -- hammer velocity (in free flight from the escapement mechanism) reigns supreme; however, to me, I find that how notes are connected / presented by a 'good' piano player ... is what makes a difference in nuance of a given 'musical' performance.


Listen to the way a pianist such as Alfred Brendel lets sounds develop in, say, Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto. He attacks certain notes hard, then progressively reduces the intensity (even to the point of using the una corda pedal on a modern piano even when it is not stated explicitly in Beethoven's original score), tying the whole thing down (which in itself creates several levels of nuance) until he flirts with silence. The way he lets the note finish, or die, is so subtly progressive that one doesn't quite know where the note ends and the silence begins.

From this uncertainty, which makes us listen hard to save this fascinating passage from nothingness, arises a strong emotion. If superficiality enters into the performance -- a kind of oversimplification in the rendition of nuances that gives the impression that the note, instead of dying away imperceptibly, is brutally cut off -- the interpretation's magic is immediately destroyed. The unknowingly superficial artist leaves us indifferent because he doesn't force us to focus our hearing faculties towards the outer limits of audibility.

(EDIT:  From personal experience, when I watch videos of Lang Lang or Keith Jarrett, their obvious extraneous movements are part of their performances -- when listening to these artists without the vantage point of seeing them perform, their performances seem trite and/or unimportant to me.  Yanni is another guy who seems to "benefit" from people watch him perform, whereas his audio CD's leave me cold.  The only exception to this visual display, it seems to me is Glenn Gould, whose audio-only performances hold my attention for long periods of time -- perhaps, I am unconsciously recalling the visual "performances" of Gould, but that's another matter.
END EDIT)

The essence of an interpretation (whether on piano or violin or clarinet or kazoo -- well, maybe not the kazoo --  and certainly NOT in bagpipes) lies in working on the infinitely small---be it an attack, or a note held back for a fraction of a second (perceptible if the preceding note is reproduced neither too short nor too long), or be it a note that develops in itself (from the ramping up of sympathetic vibrations of harmonically related undampened strings); or, on a larger level, a crescendo or diminuendo encompassing several notes---all of which gives music a sense of direction, its palpable dynamics, its quivering life, and all of which, in the end, lies in the nuances.

Food for thought,

Joe

EDIT:  I think this explanation helps express an anecdote stated earlier in this thread of why Cortot was able to elicit such beautiful music on his own Pleyel, whereas another person could hardly wrest much of a beautiful sound from the same piano.

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (10-12-2014 04:03)