Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

varpa wrote:

I agree with Ecaroh's comments - higher resolution will give a more human feel to the playing,

Well, as Ecaroh suggested, we should try to prove that by testing it, and it will have to be a carefully designed test - the player will not be allowed to know the MIDI resolution when he is playing, and nor will the listeners. Only when all the listening tests have been performed and the opinions assessed should the resolution for the recordings be revealed to us, to eliminate bias.  Now, even if we can hear a difference, that still doesn't prove that the player is playing with more resolution than standard. To prove that, we'd need to go further - we'd need to record the player's performance using standard MIDI resolution, but then superimpose +/- 0.5 a step of random noise, to create a quasi high resolution MIDI signal. If the result of doing this produces an audible difference to the straight high-res signal, I will then accept that standard MIDI is not sufficient. Let me give an extreme example, to illustrate the point I'm trying to make.  Consider a hypothetical instrument, that is indeed designed for high-res MIDI - it has 127 x 10 steps = 1270 steps.  It is a strange instrument - each step produces a very unique sound, easily distinguishable from every other sound produced by every other step.  When the player plays this instrument, he will not be able to hit any of these sounds consistently, however, he will learn the approximate strength required to cause any of the desired sounds to be triggered "sometimes" - not every time, but sometimes.  Ok, now we'll process the MIDI, to reduce it's resolution down to 127 steps. The 10 intermediate steps between each of the coarse 127 steps have now been removed - the instrument can NEVER make those sounds. The player will OF COURSE notice that these intermediate steps are missing, and we have suffered a degradation in behaviour of the instrument. I.e - this doesn't mean that the player is playing with a physical resolution of 1270 steps - it simply means that the sounds that he could sometimes be triggering at random have been removed. I'm asserting that if the instrument is now altered, such that it automatically selects, at random, one of the 10 intermediate steps, the subjective behaviour of the instrument will be restored, and the player will be unaware that the keyboard he is playing is only recording his velocity at standard (127 step) resolution.

though granted, the current midi standard gives a reasonably good representation as skip as demonstrated.

Reasonably good? You're very hard to please. Remember, I increased the dynamic range of Pianoteq to maximum, and the difference in steps is still imperceptible! It's better than "reasonably good" - it's EXCELLENT.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (07-02-2013 02:48)

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

this is getting complex ... what about a test along the line of 'play with standard resolution' and then play w/high res.' repeat as needed. sooner or later a preference on the part of the player will emerge...

just sayin...

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

pianissimo wrote:

this is getting complex ... what about a test along the line of 'play with standard resolution' and then play w/high res.' repeat as needed. sooner or later a preference on the part of the player will emerge...

If you just want to convince yourself, that's fine. If you want to convince others, you need to remove your personal bias from the test, and the way to do that is to see if you can pick the difference when you don't know which one you are playing. (same goes for the listeners)

I repeat - even if you DO notice a difference between standard and hi-res, that does not prove that you are capable of exercising more physical control than standard res. One way to test that is to do the second test I proposed.

I don't think we need to waste any time doing your test though, because I think my much simpler test has proven that your test will fail.  (we could repeat for other notes, and for other presets, though).

Just sayin....   ;^)

Greg.

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

mabry wrote:
sigasa wrote:

I would be interested to hear from anyone here who has played both RM3 AND TP40WOOD. I have never played the RM3 so am not able to compare.

Ok, so I live here in Tokyo and I went over to Ochanomizu yesterday and auditioned 4-5 Kawai keyboards. Now, Nihongo ga jyozu ni narimasen, I don't speak Japanese well; but I believe one of those boards had the RM3 action and my main keyboard is the Numa Nero with the TP40WOOD. The feel of these two keybeds is drastically different. The Kawai, for me, is just way too bouncy, the keys seem a bit too easy to play and they seem to accelerate quicker than a grand or other keybeds that I like (I may be imagining this acceleration bit, after all, the distance the key travels is very short so it's not like there is a lot of time to detect acceleration but this is the only way I can think of to describe this particular part of the feel of these keys). Also, the throw depth is much shorter than the TP40WOOD.

This is not to bash the Kawai...they obviously have very nice actions for those who like them (redundant, but what else can you say?).

The TP40WOOD, for those of you who have not played it, has a much simpler feel to it, just a basic down and up motion. And to go back to my inadequate 'acceleration' idea, the keys don't seem to accelerate at all. Oh, bosh! I don't even really know what that means...but dammit, I just like the feel of it.

I am still hoping that the new VPC1 will have a keybed that I like better than the TP40WOOD but I am not at all confident this will happen.

Chris S and anyone else who has played the TP40WOOD: how would you describe the feel of the TP40WOOD? I would really like to put my finger on what I like about it so much ('put my finger on'...that was not intentional, I swear!).

Chris

PS:

"A pair that I have always been very careful of are kawaii (cute) and kowai (scary). Soon after I arrived in Japan the first time, I was told a story of a guy who saw a baby on the train and told the mother “Oh, he’s so scary” and couldn’t understand why the woman looked rather upset."

http://mylifeasagaijin.blogspot.jp/2006...kowai.html

Thank you Chris. I am going to purchase the NUMA Concert later this year. I really love the feel of the TP40WOOD.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

Personal hands-on experience with a keyboard that generates high-def is one way - and a strong way at that - to answer the question of "to use high-def or not." The industry seems to be moving towards rather than away from it. I have my own hand-on experiences with HD over the last several months. I am looking forward to hearing more as other PT users try it for themselves. I'm sure some will find it makes a difference. Others, I'm just as sure, will find it doesn't make a difference.

More often than not, I find as a high-def "user" that I"m glad I have the option to use and experiment with it. I've been experimenting with patches I'm writing in Max (to build high-def velocity maps) which process the high-def data after it leaves the Privia but before it gets to Pianoteq. Intermediary processing of incoming high-def data as far as I know has had very little if any testing or even discussion. For right now, Pianoteq just receives and interprets the data it gets - it converts the additional CC#88 values to floating-point numbers. For me it's the "how" those numbers are interpreted (and how the controller data is generated in the first place) where things get interesting. Which is why I'm processing the incoming CC#88 through Max. So this goes back to some other threads on this user forum and elsewhere about mapping one data set to another.

I think Privia controllers for now seem to be the only ones that have high-def; well, probably there are others but they're much much more expensive When I have another controller with high-def capability, I'll try it against the Privia to see whether or not I can hear or feel a difference in the implementations. Controller implementation - and how a keyboard feels - also shape user experience - and that's a part of the equation for which information on high-def use is scanty if even there at all. With the Privia being the only affordable controller now with high-def we're a in a take-it-or-leave situation. Not everyone likes the Privia action (or maybe the other way to say it is "does anyone?"). So that's a choice to be made ..

The tests you've proposed - which really don't catch my interest and they're not experiments in which I would participate or collaborate - but I encourage you to proceed - will show interesting things about some aspects of how we perceive high-def. What I see right now is the test you've described is as prone to bias as is any other test because it's has to many undefined variables. Whether or not anyone wants to recognise or spell out those those variables is another issue.  I'm sure that soon enough research centres will take up such tests and really design and define them in controlled circumstances as has been done with so-called "melody lead" studies and really just about anything related to perception. It'll be interesting to see when and if that happens what researchers focus on, how they structure the tests, how they interpret their data, what control groups they use, which controllers, which listening environments, what kinds of conditions, and all other such things, etc. are discussed.

Anyway, if and as you actually set up and run your test(s) am looking forward to hearing about what you find. I disagree with your statement about one test "failing" and other "passing"


skip wrote:
pianissimo wrote:

this is getting complex ... what about a test along the line of 'play with standard resolution' and then play w/high res.' repeat as needed. sooner or later a preference on the part of the player will emerge...

...

I don't think we need to waste any time doing your test though, because I think my much simpler test has proven that your test will fail.  (we could repeat for other notes, and for other presets, though).

Just sayin....   ;^)

Greg.

Rather, just getting tests up and running and experiences posted is a great first step. I'm very much looking forward to hearing how the PT community in general experiences (or doesn't experience) high-def in actual usage - positive or negative or other ...I've mentioned this before: a sales person and I heard differences with and w/out high def. The owner of the particular store we were in, on the other hand, didn't hear a thing (interestingly, by his own admission he didn't want to hear a difference).

So anyway, all of this to say, that user experience - as with the evaluation of controller keyboard actions - has a lot to add to the discussion - as do tests and research set up according to strict standards.

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

pianissimo wrote:

Personal hands-on experience with a keyboard that generates high-def is one way - and a strong way at that - to answer the question of "to use high-def or not."

I agree - it's a good way to determine whether the player feels any benefit of high-def, and the more folks that talk about their experience, the better picture we will have. However, even if most people say they can hear a difference, that's still no guarantee that the placebo affect is not dominating, and a double-blind test would be very useful. 

The industry seems to be moving towards rather than away from it.

For recording a human, I don't care, however it can't hurt much. (it may add a tiny bit of latency, especially over a standard MIDI connection though).  I think it's more important for post-processing/editing.

The tests you've proposed - which really don't catch my interest and they're not experiments in which I would participate or collaborate

Maybe others will. I strongly feel that it's the proper way to determine whether high-def really makes a difference.  I'm not interested in placebo affects. ;^)

- but I encourage you to proceed

I've already satisfied myself that the tests will almost certainly fail, and I see no reason to do them. ;^)  If others do the tests, and they DO show a difference, I will want to scrutinise the results and the test procedure VERY closely indeed. 

I disagree with your statement about one test "failing" and other "passing"

I'll try again to explain the point.  Consider a sound generator that makes no sound below and above a certain velocity, but, in an extremely narrow range of velocities (much narrower than the player is capable of playing in a deterministic way), it produces one of 10 different sounds. It selects the sound by using  a random number generator - it completely ignores the velocity that the player played with, except to determine whether it's in the range or outside the range. I'm asserting that it is impossible for the player to know whether the sound generator is velocity sensitive or not, because the velocity range is too small. The player might assume that it is velocity sensitive over that very narrow range, but he will not know for sure.
He can certainly HEAR the different sounds coming out each time he plays a note, but he doesn't know whether it's responding to the extremely fine differences in playing force or not.  It's a similar case when playing piano - even if he can hear that the result when playing with high-def is different, that does not mean the player is capable of playing with > 127-step physical resolution. (in fact, I'm sort of confident that the player can't even play with 127 step resolution, and we could get away with 64 or even 32 steps, perhaps adding the +/- 0.5 step of random noise though, to fool the player, if the steps become too audible)

Essentially, I'm trying to point out that the player may well be able to hear their own randomness.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (12-02-2013 22:29)

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

pianissimo: Sorry for the double post, but I think this is important.

You say that my test has too many "undefined variables". Ok then - what "variables" did you use when you made the comparison at the shop? Why should I take any notice of your test, with all it's "undefined variables", if you think my test has too many undefined variables?

Maybe the first test could be to repeat exactly what you did in the shop.  You'll have two modes - mode A, and mode B, and you (and all the observers) won't know which is which until AFTER you have finished the test.  If you're not willing to do the test in this way, you are not being scientific.  I completely agree that no test is perfect, and if the result of this particular test is negative, that doesn't mean that further tests will not be positive. 

Note that it would be a big job, because the tests would need to be done many times, to establish statistical significance. I'm not suggesting that you personally should do all this - I'm merely seeking an agreement that it would make scientific sense.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (12-02-2013 21:39)

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

hilssouress wrote:

(spam spam spam)

Why would you post this?

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

I noticed that about 5 times or more this gentle forum has being victim of troll and - people hire to make spams.


My suggestion to Modartt is to give power to some member that are in this forum for long time, to delete such abusive posts or topics and BAN such invasors.


It's alreadty sad the fact web have much more crap and alienatory garbage than true information.  When garbage people invade a respectfully site it's revolting.
Such people should be put on jail.

Re: New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai

I agree. Such a nuisance ! :-(