I agree with almost everything you said there except that for me it's definitely easier to play louder when I don't play staccato. Exactly for the reasons you mentioned by way; because you have to time most of the force at the beginning of the stroke and quickly release. With the focus being on playing "short" notes you're basically trying to do two things at the same time. Easier to just let your arm fall down and bottom out haha.

Makes sense. Probably not a huge difference either way. I was just thinking a change in articulation might get a higher velocity output with the OP's particular keyboard.

Yes, that's me. Recognized your username as well. ;^) I don't get around a lot of other forums, but some interesting things come up here. I also tried Studio One when Presonus offered a discounted crossgrade to Sonar users but likewise never really embraced it in the relatively short time that Cakewalk development ceased. I have too much familiarity with CW to switch unless forced.

Panicking Ant wrote:

The greater the force the greater the acceleration and the greater the velocity as the hammer hits the string. It's not actually possible to move the key faster without increasing the force.

As a math/physics guy, I won't disgree with that, generally, but you don't necessarily have to carry that force all the way to the keybed. Once you've gotten the key moving at the desired velocity, you can reduce the force and the key will keep moving at that velocity with just enough force applied to overcome friction in the mechanism. You shoudn't have to apply maximum force though the whole key travel to achieve a physical velocity high enough to generate a MIDI value of 127. When people talk about playing "hard" I tend to think they mean pushing the key into the keybed with a lot fo force.

Depending on your technique and the intended articulation of the note, there will obviously be some correlation between key velocity and how hard it hits the keybed, but the two are independent to some extent. In a real piano, you can get the hammer to strike the strings without bottoming the key at all. Most MIDI keyboards will also allow this or at least allow the key to bottom on inertia alone. This is why I suggested it might be easier to get a high velocity by playing stacatto which will naturally have you applying more force at the beginning of the stroke and less at the end as you want the damper to be released as quickly as possible.

I agree with almost everything you said there except that for me it's definitely easier to play louder when I don't play staccato. Exactly for the reasons you mentioned by way; because you have to time most of the force at the beginning of the stroke and quickly release. With the focus being on playing "short" notes you're basically trying to do two things at the same time. Easier to just let your arm fall down and bottom out haha.

By the way, the same Brundlefly from Cakewalk forums I guess? Nice to see you're still around and carrying the Cakewalk torch. I felt pretty shafted by Gibson after my "lifetime updates" and tried a panic switch to both Studio One and Cubase but never really got along with either. Then Covid hit and my professional agenda completely cleared...not much recording since then.

I like the idea of a page like that (even though Pianoteq makes it really easy ro calibrate your own) but as it is it's basically useless.

The greater the force the greater the acceleration and the greater the velocity as the hammer hits the string. It's not actually possible to move the key faster without increasing the force.

As a math/physics guy, I won't disgree with that, generally, but you don't necessarily have to carry that force all the way to the keybed. Once you've gotten the key moving at the desired velocity, you can reduce the force and the key will keep moving at that velocity with just enough force applied to overcome friction in the mechanism. You shoudn't have to apply maximum force though the whole key travel to achieve a physical velocity high enough to generate a MIDI value of 127. When people talk about playing "hard" I tend to think they mean pushing the key into the keybed with a lot fo force.

Depending on your technique and the intended articulation of the note, there will obviously be some correlation between key velocity and how hard it hits the keybed, but the two are independent to some extent. In a real piano, you can get the hammer to strike the strings without bottoming the key at all. Most MIDI keyboards will also allow this or at least allow the key to bottom on inertia alone. This is why I suggested it might be easier to get a high velocity by playing stacatto which will naturally have you applying more force at the beginning of the stroke and less at the end as you want the damper to be released as quickly as possible.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Key Fumbler wrote:

We should all pay attention to good technique to avoid injury.

Of course. And to fill this advice with content: An individual velocity curve is healthy. It can avoid too much effort/pounding. Not "all MIDI keyboards" are the same

Absolutely. In my case (other than in the case of specific presets for particular pack sounds) I've totally failed to improve upon the regular standard flat line for my Casio - and it doesn't feel wrong either.

OTOH for breath MIDI devices I haven't just found custom curves helpful but completely essential. Go figure!

We should all pay attention to good technique to avoid injury.

Of course. And to fill this advice with content: An individual velocity curve is healthy. It can avoid too much effort/pounding. Not "all MIDI keyboards" are the same

Something similar happens when playing fast. Most people (including trained pianists) tend to clench up when asked to play something just slightly faster than they actually can. Playing fast requires more relaxation, not more tension. The quicker you can relax your muscles, and the more relaxed you can keep the muscles that are not involved in each keystrike, the faster you can play.

I haven't really thought about joint damage when hitting keys (the right way), although I've broken nails fairly often if I didn't keep them short. I think tendonitis is more common and that can happen to anyone. Also, I don't know the word for it in English but my left ring finger has a tendency to fall out of the proper arching and plays more flat if I don't pay attention, that can lead to damage in the long run. Although I've managed to go the first 33 years of playing without serious problems (knock on wood).

Your first paragraph is correct and can't be stated often enough. Wise words!

I haven't really thought about joint damage when hitting keys (the right way), although I've broken nails fairly often if I didn't keep them short. I think tendonitis is more common and that can happen to anyone. Also, I don't know the word for it in English but my left ring finger has a tendency to fall out of the proper arching and plays more flat if I don't pay attention, that can lead to damage in the long run. Although I've managed to go the first 33 years of playing without serious problems (knock on wood).

It may have to do with the association of "tension" or "clenching" when you say "hard". Meaning no disrespect, but many amateur or hobby pianists seem to use almost their entire arm, making everything rigid when trying to play loud. A trained pianist can play loud but stay relaxed, thus reaching a high key velocity without making a hammer out of his finger.

Of course, equal volume means equal force but the trained pianist uses fewer muscles and relaxes them quicker so it doesn't look "hard".

We should all pay attention to good technique to avoid injury.
However regardless of good or bad playing technique in order to play progressively harder you have to hit the keys progressively harder velocity with your fingers.
Sure a professional will have better technique than an amateur and paying attention to this can minimize wear and tear on our joints.
Something worth discussing for sure.

Of course, equal volume means equal force but the trained pianist uses fewer muscles and relaxes them quicker so it doesn't look "hard".

Key Fumbler wrote:

brundlefly wrote:

I agree; it's unimagineable the the CLP-725 is not capable of generating the full range of velocities. Possibly it has a user-configurable curve that is currently set to limit the velocity output, but the issue may also be technique. Note that "Velocity" is literally a measure of how fast the key is moving. This is not necessarily the same as "hard" (i.e. how firmly the key bottoms). The OP may find it easier to get full velocity by playing stacatto with a very quick finger movement.

Yes, perhaps internal velocity curves are coming into play, and/or technique.

Thanks for your replies . I have to take issue with you on speed vs hard. Pianists often like to say that what matters is not force but velocity. According to Newton's second law, acceleration is directly proportional to force.  The key is at rest.  To make it move you have to accelerate it. The greater the force the greater the acceleration and the greater the velocity as the hammer hits the string. It's not actually possible to move the key faster without increasing the force. The great Heinrich Neuhaus liked to talk about F, V and H.  I'm afraid they are just different ways of doing the same thing. Nevertheless, in the end it doesn't matter how you think about it: if it works for you, it's right. Of course, if you are manufacturing a digital piano it's the velocity which the sensors are measuring but these velocities are still produced by varying force on the keys. Anyone like to discuss this further?

I agree. You cannot get near a maximum velocity reading on a digital hammer action keyboard without applying substantial force.
Of course it has to be the hard and fast combination.
Synth action would be completely different as it's all too easy to get to maximum velocity. You can brush the keys quite lightly and get there easily, though maximum velocity still means maximum hardness of pressure, even if that's a relatively light attack in comparison to that would you need for a hammer action.

brundlefly wrote:

Key Fumbler wrote:

The point to my comment is that was the bottom of the range and was still had the full MIDI range. The bare minimum to expect from a 1982 standard!

I agree; it's unimagineable the the CLP-725 is not capable of generating the full range of velocities. Possibly it has a user-configurable curve that is currently set to limit the velocity output, but the issue may also be technique. Note that "Velocity" is literally a measure of how fast the key is moving. This is not necessarily the same as "hard" (i.e. how firmly the key bottoms). The OP may find it easier to get full velocity by playing stacatto with a very quick finger movement.

Yes, perhaps internal velocity curves are coming into play, and/or technique.

Thanks for your replies . I have to take issue with you on speed vs hard. Pianists often like to say that what matters is not force but velocity. According to Newton's second law, acceleration is directly proportional to force.  The key is at rest.  To make it move you have to accelerate it. The greater the force the greater the acceleration and the greater the velocity as the hammer hits the string. It's not actually possible to move the key faster without increasing the force. The great Heinrich Neuhaus liked to talk about F, V and H.  I'm afraid they are just different ways of doing the same thing. Nevertheless, in the end it doesn't matter how you think about it: if it works for you, it's right. Of course, if you are manufacturing a digital piano it's the velocity which the sensors are measuring but these velocities are still produced by varying force on the keys. Anyone like to discuss this further?

Key Fumbler wrote:

The point to my comment is that was the bottom of the range and was still had the full MIDI range. The bare minimum to expect from a 1982 standard!

I agree; it's unimagineable the the CLP-725 is not capable of generating the full range of velocities. Possibly it has a user-configurable curve that is currently set to limit the velocity output, but the issue may also be technique. Note that "Velocity" is literally a measure of how fast the key is moving. This is not necessarily the same as "hard" (i.e. how firmly the key bottoms). The OP may find it easier to get full velocity by playing stacatto with a very quick finger movement.

Yes, perhaps internal velocity curves are coming into play, and/or technique.

The point to my comment is that was the bottom of the range and was still had the full MIDI range. The bare minimum to expect from a 1982 standard!

I agree; it's unimagineable the the CLP-725 is not capable of generating the full range of velocities. Possibly it has a user-configurable curve that is currently set to limit the velocity output, but the issue may also be technique. Note that "Velocity" is literally a measure of how fast the key is moving. This is not necessarily the same as "hard" (i.e. how firmly the key bottoms). The OP may find it easier to get full velocity by playing stacatto with a very quick finger movement.