"I know I could write more words, faster, with a new NASA grade anti-gravity votex-flux touch 'pin' and art tablet. Hemingway.. stuck in the past dear boy! And those type-writing yarbs, so yester year!"

Seriously though, my old synth boards (not enough keys, just 64) make for very fast playing, by comparison - but with practically 20% of the expressive ability of the dpiano.

So, I'd be pretty confident that faster music could result with smaller keys, generally, and a well made keybed like the one mentioned up above, may mean some future artists with some very mean chops could do some interesting things.. but would it just amount to 'shredding'? - the thing popularized by some 80s electric guitar 'heros', lots of notes played by tapping strings up/down frets, look ma! Both hands!

Per person, a good smaller keyboard could provide a really good form of expression. I'm probably feeling as though smaller keys might always remind me of terrible plastic synths, but maybe many would prefer them.

Like Gaston said, these smaller ones may be better for smaller hands - maybe not so valuable to people with hands beyond a certain size.

I like both - the idea of both seems like 'why not'.. Maybe enough talk like this on forums might slowly send more people to companies making smaller boards - and if that eventually causes enough market share to slip from some major brands' current boards, maybe there could be an experimental offering made.

It would have the advantage, to a large manufacturer, of not having to use as much material (probably 30% less.. not too bad), probably no need to "remake a perfect piano pivot".. nobody would expect a smaller board to behave exactly like their fav piano IRL.. just "less marketing needing to talk to pianists in their language".

It would materialize some advantages to mainstream populations.. cheaper for all (if small form factor cost-reductions are honorably passed on to consumers, wouldn't complain of a certain 'cut' into that for brands.. since they need profit to point more resources towards the generation thereof).. parents would more likely put one in the home.. more kids getting further with their 'often obligatory' piano lessons, maybe more music 'in the world'..

Fun thoughts spring from any angle - but in general, bring it on! And I guess fwiw - a big thanks to manufacturers in this space.

I was curious if compositions would have more octaves if it was easier to let even small-fingered-folks hit them.  After all, the only way to make a piano louder, other than high velocity key strikes, is to add more notes - duplicate notes in octaves for double the volume.  Rachmaninoff seemed to compose six octaves for two hands!  (just kidding)

But, would compositions be much better or even different?  I don't know.  It might be like the corollary joke that photographers make when someone praises their photo and then asks what type of camera they use:

"Mr. Hemmingway, that's a great novel that you wrote....what type of pen did you use?"

I had seen that video "Piano's Darkest Secret" by MusicalBasics, posted by Don above. Loved the idea of smaller key size for smaller hands - and it struck me as strange that makers of those boards with smaller keys are not more well known.

But I suppose it's just so cemented in, that piano keys are of a particular size for various reasons.

It would be impossible for all concert halls to offer performers a choice of pianos (like maybe they have 1 or 2 house pianos which have to suit all performers without the expense of shipping in specific ones).. other reasons..

Like schools of all kinds, teaching kind of standardizing on many things, I guess, if they can graduate students who are 'ready' for concert halls and normal pianos in most situations, it would be currently obvious that teaching on one standard size could be seen, by students/parents/mentors etc., as being the 'rational' thing to do.

But, for sure any musician at the skill level they are happy with can surely choose and use any instrument, size etc. for fun or professional reasons too. (esp. outside classical piano context).

I do think we can blame the incredibly ingrained an difficult to shift 'concert hall' background for most orchestra related instrumentation, regulations and right down to sizing of things like keys on pianos. There's reason for all of that - expense. It's not incorrect or a bad history of awful decisions when you think on it. Things like making certain orchestras standardize on a certain frequency measure of the note A.. whatever these things in the past really meant, "If you want to sell pianos to orchestras, you better make the diapason at this measurement.. the keys the same as they always were so nobody has to adjust" (or ... maybe nobody every mentioned key size at all.. it's one of the things just taken to be a default.. because all early pianos were trying to find ways to make "BIGGER" pianos, with more notes, for Beethoven! and his ilk. Smaller keys would NOT have been an advantage in the era where composers where demanding bigger, louder, more notes. A lot of fortepiano structures were small.. I can imagine piano makers hearing Beethoven demands more, would be thinking.. "What if we made our keys larger, strings further apart.. then we would have reason for larger frame.. and less cramped parts will sing better." _ IDK for sure what they would have considered of course - but if 'the market' wants 'huge', few engineers might say "What if we made smaller keys!".. "You're fired!"

Interesting that I know, if I were younger I'd go running to the music store to try out a Roly Seaboard.. love the idea of breaking out of 'old ways' personally for my own music but I know it would be taking me nowhere if my goal was to play standard classical repertoire in concert settings, which is probably where most kids and parents begin from when putting their children into piano classes (where the cementing in of standards all begins).

A typical music store lives or dies from having or not having school supply contracts, to deliver a fairly predictable number of instruments to as many schools as they can sign up.. who in their right mind in a music store would say to a school.. "Hey you guys, we're taking delivery of this consignment of a new piano type.. with small keys and we think your kids are going to work well with it - how many do you want to order today?".

Maybe though, that's ALL it would take.. get a smaller key piano into schools.. could be cheaper than supplying "big adult" sized ones. ?? Would need a push - a complete billionaire-like setup to flood the entire western "school music supply". Maybe a consortium of music equipment distribution companies could work with some major countries' government (politicians responsible for arts portfolios etc.) - make a set of draft resolutions 'to overhaul piano related supply considerations'.. years later.. one by one, fill some large contracts to some large schools who 'signed on' to the resolution through whatever governable processes they use to interface with government.. years later again.. maybe there'd be an acceptable 2 tiers of piano size. The savings made in school venues (buying smaller/cheaper pianos) might be recouped by manufacturers/distributors in the later supply chains, where they may deliver 2 pianos to concert halls, who now cater to pianists who may use either.. it could also see more concerts with more young people who 'stick with piano' instead of 'rage quitting' because they can't envisage becoming good pianists, not least because current key sizes.

At the same time... with modern engineering as it can be, I imagine ways of 'snapping in' different keyboards to a piano body. Difficult because of different distances from strings to keys (all kinds of leverage differentials or other dramas) - but what's possible can be just too expensive for eventual use cases I suppose. That kind of may be one such cul de sac at least for concert halls.

But dpianos... why not - all sizes - different expressions available via all kinds of sensors.. choosing between 'grand piano' mode and 'Roly Seaboard' mode

I feel like I'd probably only want to replace my dpiano with something offering choice of size and choice of behaviours (respect all grand piano action input/output.. to full touch expression using aftertouch with sensors to play vibrato etc... and so on). Until that kind of thing, if it comes along, I'm happy with the keys I've got - but.. if I were new to music, I'd prefer if the whole music world already offered pianists at least 2 main default key sizes. Manufactures of dpianos have 'the sky' as their limit.. rather than wanting a strange thing, I'd love a piano-like thing which can do what the Seaboard can too. Why not? Smaller keys would be extra cool too, if it was a snap in thing.. pull out the big ones, put in the small ones. I'd want both - I felt there were advantages to me as a musician, to putting up with piano sized keys.

The smaller key factor used by a lot of synths in the past did not prepare me for piano in my later times. After being very comfortable with smaller keys for so long, getting into real pianos and good dpianos for piano software, it was a stretch (pun) and quite a jump - BUT - I did feel that my musicianship improved a lot.. because of the struggle with larger keys.. in a way it's everyone's same struggle.. and I do think my playing would have remained 'lesser' if I didn't say "You know what, I'm going to get a piano" (which turned into getting Pianoteq).

Leaves me wondering, if smaller keys would be good, overall in 'the whole human population' really - or not. Would it mean, more can play the classics, or would it amount to more 'throw away' performances, in any genre/mode?

Would it lead to better compositions (esp. classical world), or would we lose a kind of extraordinary take which comes from the kind of Chopins of the world who make extraordinary leaps (from bare physicality through to that sparking deeper expressions of a musical nature.. difficult for even the best pianists in any generation). How can we make that possible, by making the ultimate classical music tool.. easier to play??

Would it lead to worse compositions, or would we gain a kind of extraordinary leap which comes from something like 'there are now more Chopins everywhere'

When I jump on an old synth.. I can't imagine being able to play my later compositions with the same 'feeling' - but maybe that would come with time on the smaller keys?

Those things are always fascinating to imagine.. but reality bubbles along just fine for most.. but in general a choice of piano key size would be likely a huge advance in music, when I imagine it happening.

Cool thread weightedKeys!

"If you have small hands and find playing the piano rather a “stretch” (sic) Narrow Keys has the answer. In collaboration with PianoArc, this new company released the NK5.5 88-note weight keyboard.

[image showing the NK5.5. alongside a standard width keyboard instrument - Comparison between the Narrow Keys NK5.5 and a standard width keyboard]

https://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy...24x442.jpg

https://youtu.be/BMozDMRgYLg

The standard width of an octave is 6.5in (16.5cm). The NK5.5’s octave span is 5.5in (14cm) making it far easier for pianists with smaller hands. In other respects, the keyboard is the same – [white] key length is 6in (15.24cm), and key weighting averages out at 52g."

--

particularly, i am interested whether keys on

SL88 grand midi keyboard,
roland fp90,
kawai mp7se

are similar in size (width/length) to piano keys.

(by the way, i am based in london. if anyone in this forum can recommend a good shop with a decent collection of digital pianos or midi keyboards to try out, please let me know. all the shops that i found so far are rather small and don't have a broad range of products)

cheers ;-)

Not among the brands you mentioned, but I can tell you that the size and weight of the keys on my Native Instruments Komplete Control S88 MK2 are virtually identical to our Steinway. Even measuring the entire length of the 88 keys is within 1/8 inch.

Narrower keys were quite common before todays standard has been established in the (afaik) 1940s. Today it would be easy to build digital pianos with different key sizes. I am absolutely certain that the majority of musicians would chose  6" or even 5.5" per octave instead of 6.5". Don't forget the many women who would greatly benefit.

Totally agree, and being myself a rather small handed people I would like to own such a shrunken keyboard !

dklein wrote:

As a 'small-handed' person, I see benefits for narrow keys for current music, but in another few decades, large-handed composers will then have even greater note span in their new works, as they themselves use the narrower-key keyboards.

Then narrowed narrow keyboards will be made so that small-handed people can play these XXL span pieces, and so on ...
So by the end of the century the only limit will be the width of the pianists' fingers...

Narrower keys were quite common before todays standard has been established in the (afaik) 1940s. Today it would be easy to build digital pianos with different key sizes. I am absolutely certain that the majority of musicians would chose  6" or even 5.5" per octave instead of 6.5". Don't forget the many women who would greatly benefit.

As a 'small-handed' person, I see benefits for narrow keys for current music, but in another few decades, large-handed composers will then have even greater note span in their new works, as they themselves use the narrower-key keyboards.

Then narrowed narrow keyboards will be made so that small-handed people can play these XXL span pieces, and so on ...
So by the end of the century the only limit will be the width of the pianists' fingers...

I recently watched this:
https://youtu.be/ZXlknI-Jc48

Considering the paranoia regarding male hand size and male ..um..er..Trump. something comparison/imaginary issue mentioned by the guy in the video consider the virtuosic abilities of a lady called Yuja Wang. Hugely talented performer with very apropo name!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHbOkrN24Vw

As a 'small-handed' person, I see benefits for narrow keys for current music, but in another few decades, large-handed composers will then have even greater note span in their new works, as they themselves use the narrower-key keyboards.

So here comes a different layout into account. It is everybody's own preference if he wants to use a tool as good as possible or just wants to make music. For me music doesn't become worse only because I won't use the original instrument it was written for.

As a 'small-handed' person, I see benefits for narrow keys for current music, but in another few decades, large-handed composers will then have even greater note span in their new works, as they themselves use the narrower-key keyboards.

This is a myth, and a very wrong one. There is a musical sound which is very special in the interval of a tenth. Perhaps the eleventh can also be useful on occasion. Larger ones do not really bear any "special" sound which cannot be achieved equally with an inversion.

For example: play a third, and compare it with a tenth. Very different, the latter much "richer"
By comparison, play a fifth, and compare it with a twelveth. Pretty much the same.

Key Fumbler wrote:

Slightly slimmer keyboards aren't such a divergence from what we know today. I can see those potentially making a real difference in the market, with the right backers, brave investors and so on. Promoted well I think it could actually boost sales of pianos and keyboards.

perhaps this would have a better chance of succeeding if it was done via something like a Kickstarter project.

unfortunately, the big manufacturers seem to have little interests in this.

It might have some limited niche success for sure. What it needs is for parents to be able to visit dealerships and website and immediately be hit with the options - proactively informed.
I'm thinking someone like an Elon Musk type character to take an interest and invest in serious promotion. It's pretty obvious that this is a strange oversight. A weird historical hangover.
I doubt it will happen, but it's feasible.

i've ordered a Lumatone, but it costs a small fortune.

This is why I decided to buy a Linnstrument. If I could afford it the Lumatone would be definately my first choice.