Very interesting, WeightedKeys...  After your comment, I have been playing with the binaural Steinway B, placing the head, with the width set at the widest, below the soundboard, on the soundboard, and even midway and at the tail of the piano rather than at the bench position with these settings.  And I am listening with speakers, rather than headphones.  I like it in all of these positions - very rich, very 'present'.

oh, I am glad someone found my comment useful ;-)
and yes, the presence and richness is amazing.

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

The problem is with headphones, that the sound is in our head, and headphones gives left sound channel sound only to left ear, and right sound channel sound only to right ear (unlike standing beside a real piano, where the sound come to both ears, maybe not at the same time, and with that rooms acustics, not at same time to both ears from different directions,
depending on reflections from the walls).

Did you try to reduce the stereo level?

Thank you stamkorg for the question
Yes, and tried to increase stereo level too. But, hearing a difference is not necessarily same as one being better. Binaural recording sometimes is good but often still don’t give ”life” to the sound. But, the meaning with binaural is of course to overcome these problems.
With a real piano, both ears get the sound, but not at the same time. Because we have two ears, our brain can decide the direction where the sound is coming from. When we play, we always move our head more or less. If looking a bit to the right, left ear get sound first and right ear a bit later (30ms for ex.), left ear sound more loudly. This give us an acustic image/reverberation. And in addition we have the sound reflexes in the room, not coming at the same time to both ears either.

As I se it, many of the audio products are still technical limited, in a way, that they cant yet beat human brain understanding/experience of the nature of the sound in the real world (regardless of if we have  very expensive headphones or if there are 11 or 88 elements in a  speaker). But the development process is never-ending, fortunately

And I love Ptq Orgtq and use them every day Good sounding.

Best wishes,

Stig

Pianoteqenthusiast, Organteqenthusiast, Harpteqenthusiast

The problem is with headphones, that the sound is in our head, and headphones gives left sound channel sound only to left ear, and right sound channel sound only to right ear (unlike standing beside a real piano, where the sound come to both ears, maybe not at the same time, and with that rooms acustics, not at same time to both ears from different directions,
depending on reflections from the walls).

Did you try to reduce the stereo level?

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

Although many people are not satisfied with binaural yet. In Ptq you can make the head a bit bigger and drag it away a bit from the piano, (Ptq manual it says you can rotate the head and make it bigger) in any direction. but it is not yet the right live experience (but I use it sometimes). Everyone’s head and ear canal have different size, so if your head/ear canal don’t have the same size as the the one used for the recording, the brain can’t reproduce/copy the sound right.  And then we have, that when playing we are moving our head, as I said in another thread. But, I read somewhere that there are people working on this, so maybe binaural is the future for headphones, maybe a new audioformat? Binaural is ment for headphones.

I tried it only a little bit with Pianoteq, so perhaps I have not found yet the right settings, but I am one of the dissatisfied persons. On the other hand, I've often had my socks blown off by binaural demos on YouTube, so it's not that I'm insensitive to this: I really like it. Just that something is amiss with pianoteq default settings for me.

Pianoteqenthusiast wrote:

If it could be possible to put a video cam in the recording head and synchronize the movements of the head/eye with the recording. It could help listening, giving more life to the experience, when the position of the head and the information of the eyesight works together in videorecording.
In my opinion there is work to do with binaural, but it is the future.

That's exactly what this guy has done (with samples, obviously, not model): https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/263-the-...zioli-f308

Maybe now that pianoteq is giving some programmatical access to itself via the JSON API, we're getting close? I certainly hope so.

Thanks for the link dv. Interesting. It is a beginning.
But with Ptq presets we can hear sound from left and right already when playing low or high notes. It’s a beginning too.

The problem is with headphones, that the sound is in our head, and headphones gives left sound channel sound only to left ear, and right sound channel sound only to right ear (unlike standing beside a real piano, where the sound come to both ears, maybe not at the same time, and with that rooms acustics, not at same time to both ears from different directions,
depending on reflections from the walls).

When this problem, as described above, is solved we are close to get the ”life” to the sound
That’s what I think about it.

Best wishes,

Stig

Pianoteqenthusiast, Organteqenthusiast, Harpteqenthusiast

Although many people are not satisfied with binaural yet. In Ptq you can make the head a bit bigger and drag it away a bit from the piano, (Ptq manual it says you can rotate the head and make it bigger) in any direction. but it is not yet the right live experience (but I use it sometimes). Everyone’s head and ear canal have different size, so if your head/ear canal don’t have the same size as the the one used for the recording, the brain can’t reproduce/copy the sound right.  And then we have, that when playing we are moving our head, as I said in another thread. But, I read somewhere that there are people working on this, so maybe binaural is the future for headphones, maybe a new audioformat? Binaural is ment for headphones.

I tried it only a little bit with Pianoteq, so perhaps I have not found yet the right settings, but I am one of the dissatisfied persons. On the other hand, I've often had my socks blown off by binaural demos on YouTube, so it's not that I'm insensitive to this: I really like it. Just that something is amiss with pianoteq default settings for me.

That's exactly what this guy has done (with samples, obviously, not model): https://pianoclack.com/forum/d/263-the-...zioli-f308

Maybe now that pianoteq is giving some programmatical access to itself via the JSON API, we're getting close? I certainly hope so.

funny enough, my current favourite setting is the Steinway model B set to 'binaural' with the location of the ears/headphones below the centre of instrument soundboard. reverb set to jazz studio. and i listen to it via headphones.
feels like i have the real instrument right in front of me.

Hello weightedKeys,

Nice to hear that you are using binaural. The meaning with binaural is of course to reproduce the live experience of sitting at a real grand piano and playing it as seated on the bench. I have used binaural sometimes, but always going back to ”normal”.

Although many people are not satisfied with binaural yet. In Ptq you can make the head a bit bigger and drag it away a bit from the piano, (Ptq manual it says you can rotate the head and make it bigger) in any direction. but it is not yet the right live experience (but I use it sometimes). Everyone’s head and ear canal have different size, so if your head/ear canal don’t have the same size as the the one used for the recording, the brain can’t reproduce/copy the sound right.  And then we have, that when playing we are moving our head, as I said in another thread. But, I read somewhere that there are people working on this, so maybe binaural is the future for headphones, maybe a new audioformat? Binaural is ment for headphones.

If it could be possible to put a video cam in the recording head and synchronize the movements of the head/eye with the recording. It could help listening, giving more life to the experience, when the position of the head and the information of the eyesight works together in videorecording.
In my opinion there is work to do with binaural, but it is the future.

It is nice to read that you feel like you have the real instrument right in front of you     That’s the meaning with binaural, and I’m sure it works for some people.

Best wishes,

Stig

Pianoteqenthusiast, Organteqenthusiast, Harpteqenthusiast

Thanks for your replies. For most of the time I've had Pianoteq I've used the Steinway B preset because I think it sounds pretty much as an acoustic piano might sound in my room. Of course you're both right.  But how to deal with the awareness of the huge range of choices which Pianoteq gives us? I think it's a disease for which I must find a cure!

Yes, of course Steinway B is a more 'domestic' studio-size piano, many of the others are big concert grands. K2 and YC5 are also studio-size, as are the Erard and Pleyel in the KViR collection (although these are more 'vintage', with the Pleyel in particular being something of an aquired taste). I didn't like the K2 or YC5 at all in earlier versions of Pianoteq, but I'm beginning to warm to them. Still prefer Steinway B, though.
The range of choices for adjustment can seem overwhelming, but I think the best thing to do is force yourself to 'keep it simple'. There are lots of minimal changes which can be done without wading in too deep. For instance, recently I've been playing around with Steingraeber Prelude. I like it, but wanted a little more 'depth'  - so I decided to try some of the Equalizer presets (not EQ3). I have to admit that I sometimes forget about these settings! Anyway, I settled for 'Presence', which gives it just a little more 'oomph'. The other thing I did was to activate all 5 mics (not attempting to move them, just switching them on) - OK, you can only do this with Standard or Pro, but it does add some extra ambience.

For some time I've been campaigning to get some better tools to help people to set their own velocity curves. IMO the velocity curve is the single most important thing to get right in Pianoteq (one of my posts above describes how I eventually managed to sort mine out). More recently I've been pressing for some simple controls to help people to quickly adjust the tone of the piano (darker or brighter) according to taste and listening environment. I know there must quite a lot of people out there who think 'yeah, Pianoteq's great, but I wish there was a way to adjust it quickly without needing degree-level knowledge of sound engineering and piano design'. The Condition slider is great, because it adjusts a whole host of parameters in a balanced way - so why not have something like that for 'Piano Tone'? Incidentally, Condition does help to make the piano sound more believable, and I always set it to at least 0.12.

I know that members of the Modartt team do read the forum, and they will implement requests if they are feasible and if they feel there is enough demand. So I'll keep on asking for these things, and hope that others will ask for them too!

I absolutely sympathise with the OP. In Pianoteq we have several pianos. For each piano we have a range, sometimes large, of presets, all of which sound different. The piano sound changes again with different velocity curves. . If I use different headphones the sounds are different again.  Likewise different speakers sound different. And yet, those of you with better ears than mine are able to discuss the characteristics of each Pianoteq piano in detail, as if these characteristics were fixed properties.  Added to this, all acoustic pianos sound different from each other, not least because of the rooms they are in. I am not out to be difficult; it's just that, much as I love Pianoteq, I continually drive myself crazy (and waste a lot of playing time) trying to get the best possible sound.
The same variety of audio components produces perfectly satisfactory piano sound from CD, streaming services or YouTube.

I really would appreciate some practical advice, preferably couched in simple terms.

Hello Panicking Ant and welcome to the forum

This with sound quality and comparisons (and comparisons with sampled piano sounds) is a never ending story because of all you are saying (and you are so right - different headphones, speakers, ears, ear flaps…. different size of heads, keyboards and much more…).
When I got Ptq I almost got crazy too, trying all parameters, which sound best etc. Now after 10 years I am changing very little - a bit more impedance, changing Ptq outputlevel to -10 (and increase in my DAW) and sometimes mint to 0.10) Because the next day I always found out that my own made sound is worse than the preset. Today I’m satisfied with these small changes and happy with Modartt’s updates now and then. And some people say I have a good sound.

i don’t know if this is ”some practical advice, preferably couched in simple terms”.
It’s just how I feel now. I think many of us have these difficult experiences in beginning, some of us all the time   
But I love Ptq and  after recording several hundreds pieces I’m never going back to sampled pianos.

Best wishes,

Stig

Pianoteqenthusiast, Organteqenthusiast, Harpteqenthusiast

I really would appreciate some practical advice, preferably couched in simple terms.

Hi Frank,

I have the FP90, not the FP30, so I can connect the FP90 to the Steinberg device via MIDI cables. In your case you must use an USB cable to connect the FP30 with the PC directly, I think.
I tried the MIDI-over-USB before and it worked fine with a high quality USB cable (but not with a cheap one).

The UR22 MK22 is for USB-2.0. It works well on my old notebook (Windows 7), but it does not work well with my new notebook (USB-C only), most probably because of the USB adapters and HUBs from USB-2 to USB-C.
I think your MacBook Pro does have USB-3, so the Steinberg UR22C-USB3 or similar might be the better choice.

I think the minimum hardware setup in your case would be a high quality USB cable from FP30 to MacBook for the MIDI information. With a little bit of luck the modification of the "Key touch" already provides excellent sound on headphone output of the MacBook. This setup can be extended with an external sound card to boost the Beyer Dynamics.

In my specific setup the Audio Out from the Roland and a Rode Microphone are connected to the Steinberg, and the Audio Out from the Steinberg is connected to the Roland. This is due to the Flute and Piano online lessons for my kids. But Pianoteq is not involved here...

I built up my hardware setup after studying the website from Jane: https://www.musicrepo.com/home-recording-studio-setup/

Best regards

Martin

Thank you Martin. I'll check it out and let you know. Unfortunately it might take a while. I'll be on several business trips during the next weeks. Best regards, Frank