drahoslove wrote:

I just want to share this with those who use Pianoteq on the Raspberry Pi, or on some other headless pc.
. . .
I can share more specific info if anyone is interested.

Thanks, this looks like an interesting, useful project.

I might try to set it up to use with my Zynthian (Raspberry Pi device).

I don't like the idea of physical cables.  I wonder whether the device connections could be made with Bluetooth MIDI, which I'm generally happy with.  I know Bluetooth MIDI is fine for me connecting midi keyboard to iPad or Raspberry Pi.  I assume it would need to use Web-MIDI with the browser app, meaning you need to use Web-MIDI-enabled browser, which I think still basically means Chrome.  Not sure whether Web-MIDI can send via Bluetooth MIDI, will check if I ever get around to using your project.

EDIT: A quick check seems to indicate Bluetooth midi will work fine with browser using Web MIDI.  (I've been assuming the browser app needs Web MIDI, but I guess I don't even know that. . . )  https://webmidijs.org/forum/discussion/...di-support

Thank you.

I don't have experience with iOS products, I assume the Bluetooth MIDI could work out of the box.
For Android tablet/phone I had to use this ugly-looking MIDI+BTLE app to make the Bluetooth-MIDI connection work with my RC.

Once the MIDI is connected (USB or Bluetooth) the Web-MIDI application should just work.

I don't actually use the Bluetooth connection now, because I had my tablet connected to USB anyway - for charging. And I never move my setup.

drahoslove wrote:

Hello, people.

I just want to share this with those who use Pianoteq on the Raspberry Pi, or on some other headless PC.
...

I can share more specific info if anyone is interested.

This is very nice work!

I'm using a Raspberry Pi 4B in a SmartPi case with the official 7" official touchscreen.  It's nice to have the full Pianoteq GUI for experimenting with different settings, and performance is fine for what I do.

But for live performance your simplified browser interface for selecting presets is appealing.

Could the webpage and javascript be installed locally on the Raspberry Pi (instead of having to have an internet connection to pian.co/rc)?   If so can you provide details?  Many thanks.

I am really glad you like it.

The RC is frontend only, and it works in offline mode - Once you load the pian.co/rc the page is cached to the browser and it should work next time even if you are entirely offline. So you don't really need to create a local instance.

If you want to anyway, you should be able to just:
- git clone my repository (or download and extract the zip)
- install node with npm (if you don't have it already)
- run npm install - to install the https-server dependency
- and npm start - to make it run locally on port 80 of your Pi

(alternatively, you can just download the static files the page and set up your local webserver in your preferred way - eg. using apache)

EDIT: Actually I realized, that opening the page in the browser on the same device you have your Pianoteq instance running probably won't work unless you have some software MIDI loop running - because you need some MIDI device to work with, which will receive the messages and sends them to the Pianoteq. (It might work if your MIDI keyboard acts as a MIDI repeater)
I used LoopMIDI when testing it on windows. On RaspberryOS, I think you can use a combination of jack toolkit and aconnect command, I can't however provide you with the exact instructions.

I just want to share this with those who use Pianoteq on the Raspberry Pi, or on some other headless pc.
. . .
I can share more specific info if anyone is interested.

Thanks, this looks like an interesting, useful project.

I might try to set it up to use with my Zynthian (Raspberry Pi device).

I don't like the idea of physical cables.  I wonder whether the device connections could be made with Bluetooth MIDI, which I'm generally happy with.  I know Bluetooth MIDI is fine for me connecting midi keyboard to iPad or Raspberry Pi.  I assume it would need to use Web-MIDI with the browser app, meaning you need to use Web-MIDI-enabled browser, which I think still basically means Chrome.  Not sure whether Web-MIDI can send via Bluetooth MIDI, will check if I ever get around to using your project.

EDIT: A quick check seems to indicate Bluetooth midi will work fine with browser using Web MIDI.  (I've been assuming the browser app needs Web MIDI, but I guess I don't even know that. . . )  https://webmidijs.org/forum/discussion/...di-support

kingfisher wrote:

Using Raspberry PI 4b with 64 bit OS I have no problems with 128 or 256 polyphony

Can somebody benchmark this one? I'm not sure if it's performable in real life, but nonetheless I want to know.
http://transfer.sh/MKmXoY/Archive.zip

The Pedal is meant to be held as long as possible in this one.

I think the "not sure if it's performable in real life" is the most relevant one here. 

Pianoteq runs fine on very basic computers.  It seems people tend to think, "wow Pianoteq is amazing, it must be crazy intensive for my computer to run" and then think they need a much more powerful computer than they actually do.

M1 Macs are insanely overpowered for Pianoteq.  My 2015 middle-of-the-road Intel/Windows laptop runs Pteq great.  So does my Raspberry Pi 4.  And so does my Macbook M1, but that certainly isn't a primary use for my M1.  And while M1's machines use much less power than comparable speed Intel machines, (relatively) slower laptop machines use less power than Mac Mini, while still running Pianoteq fine.  For example, my Asus UX305 laptop is less power hungry than a Mac Mini M1, albeit also nowhere near as fast.

Hello, people.

I just want to share this with those who use Pianoteq on the Raspberry Pi, or on some other headless pc.

I was originally using the VNC view solution to control the Pianoteq GUI using my tablet, but I realized, I don't really need the whole GUI, since I practically never use any of the options apart from the switching of the presets.

So I decided to create my own simple interface for doing just that - switching between the default instrument presets.

It runs in a web browser and uses MIDI messages to communicate with the Pianoteq. So you can run Pianoteq in headless mode and you don't need to run graphical desktop at all on your Pi (you still might need it for the initial setup though), which saves you some of the precious HW resources.

If you are like me, and if you have following instruments packs: Petrof, Bechstein, Blüthner + the two free packs

Then you might want to try it out:

here -> pian.co/rc

What you need to make it work for you:

• make sure your Pianoteq version is 7.4

• download my pianco.ptm Midi mapping file

• save it to /home/pi/.local/share/Modartt/Pianoteq/MidiMappings directory

• set is as default midi mapping by editing /home/pi/.config/Modartt/Pianoteq74.prefs or using the Pianoteq GUI

• connect your phone/tablet to your Raspberry Pi using USB cable

• select use USB for: MIDI from the Android's USB options menu

• make sure the Pianoteq is running and listens to all MIDI inputs (both your piano and your tablet)

• open the page pian.co/rc on the device - allow using MIDI if required

Note that I only tested it with Android and Chrome. I'm not sure whether iOS or other devices/browsers work.

Please let me know what are your thoughts.

My audio setup is a bit specific, so this solution might not be as practical for you as it is for me.

My tablet is permanently docked on the music stand of my piano, connected to the Pi, it is always on and my piano is also always connected to the Pi.
I'm using the Pi as a MIDI bridge between the tablet and my piano - that way I can use the second part of my web app on my tablet to control my Roland piano setting, and of course, I can use any android apps which use MIDI input/output; all without the need to physically reconnecting any cables.

I wrote a simple script that detects when the Piano is turned ON/OFF - it creates the MIDI bridge and starts Pianoteq if ON, and turn off the Pianoteq and start a Spotify server if the piano is OFF.

I can share more specific info if anyone is interested.

This is very nice work!

I'm using a Raspberry Pi 4B in a SmartPi case with the official 7" official touchscreen.  It's nice to have the full Pianoteq GUI for experimenting with different settings, and performance is fine for what I do.

But for live performance your simplified browser interface for selecting presets is appealing.

Could the webpage and javascript be installed locally on the Raspberry Pi (instead of having to have an internet connection to pian.co/rc)?   If so can you provide details?  Many thanks.

kingfisher wrote:

Using Raspberry PI 4b with 64 bit OS I have no problems with 128 or 256 polyphony

Can somebody benchmark this one? I'm not sure if it's performable in real life, but nonetheless I want to know.
http://transfer.sh/MKmXoY/Archive.zip

The Pedal is meant to be held as long as possible in this one.

With my Raspberry Pi4b at 1800Mhz and a max polyphony of 256, at a few points it hit 155 and showed CPU overload and there was frequent momentary audible distortion.
With Max Polyphony set to 128 there was still CPU overload, but I didn't notice any distortion.

I tried at 2000Mhz but that was actually worse with even more distortion. Interesting to see/hear that 1800Mhz seems to be a sweet spot performance wise at least for this midi file

You are right. The problems probably only occur in songs that have the pedal held the whole time, much less likely to happen with the vast majority of songs.
Or rather, really difficult songs that are also far beyond my capability right now.

But acquiring a Raspberry Pi right now might be a waste... right?

What did you pay for the case and the XLR outputs?
If I were to get one, it would be connected to an Headphone Amp.
I would also need WiFi, to have internet access, since I plan to use the MIDI archiving mechanism to be running 24/7 and sync it to mega.nz.

Also, don't you think the Raspberry Pi 5 could release this year even?

Edit: Raspberry Pi 400 would suit my use case, plus it's mostly already ready to use.
Would probably hide behind my acoustic walls or so.
But if I were to re-use integrated Piano Speakers, then I'd have to upgrade my Roland FP-30...

Raspberry Pi 4b has built in wifi which works just fine.
The steel case was 22 euros from HifiBerry and the XLR hat and the XLR hat was 55 euros. But if you don't need balanced outputs the Hifiberry DAC2 Pro is 40 euros.

I think the Pi5 is still many months away, I couldn't wait

Using Raspberry PI 4b with 64 bit OS I have no problems with 128 or 256 polyphony

Can somebody benchmark this one? I'm not sure if it's performable in real life, but nonetheless I want to know.
http://transfer.sh/MKmXoY/Archive.zip

The Pedal is meant to be held as long as possible in this one.

But acquiring a Raspberry Pi right now might be a waste... right?

What did you pay for the case and the XLR outputs?
If I were to get one, it would be connected to an Headphone Amp.
I would also need WiFi, to have internet access, since I plan to use the MIDI archiving mechanism to be running 24/7 and sync it to mega.nz.

Also, don't you think the Raspberry Pi 5 could release this year even?

Edit: Raspberry Pi 400 would suit my use case, plus it's mostly already ready to use.
Would probably hide behind my acoustic walls or so.
But if I were to re-use integrated Piano Speakers, then I'd have to upgrade my Roland FP-30...

kingfisher:

Interesting, I have the same 64bit OS, same sample rate setting, but when playing just the default Blues demo (which does not even use that much polyphony) I see more than two red lines you have. I guess that is because my CPU is only 1800Hz (I don't use a cooler and I'm afraid to push it more). Or is it because you modified the Bechstain DG preset? I tried the default one.

My performance index is '25..29'.

Could you share the midi file you were using? I can't find any which makes use of even over ~50 voices.

I used Beethovens Sonata No. 14 C# minor (Moonlight) , Opus 27/2 (1801) 3rd movement http://www.piano-midi.de/midis/beethoven/mond_3.mid
found on this page.
http://www.piano-midi.de/beeth.htm

This was really to stress test my system and greatly exceeds anything that would normally be played, so the two red lines are of no concern. But like you I usually use the CPU at 1800Mhz as well, which works just fine for my needs...
Regarding cooling I mounted a cooler on the case since there was no room with the head. This really works well to reduce the cpu temp.

Interesting, I have the same 64bit OS, same sample rate setting, but when playing just the default Blues demo (which does not even use that much polyphony) I see more than two red lines you have. I guess that is because my CPU is only 1800Hz (I don't use a cooler and I'm afraid to push it more). Or is it because you modified the Bechstain DG preset? I tried the default one.

My performance index is '25..29'.

Could you share the midi file you were using? I can't find any which makes use of even over ~50 voices.

Defenz0r, thank you, your stats are nice,

Using Raspberry PI 4b with 64 bit OS I have no problems with 128 or 256 polyphony

But you are having in this one already two cpu overloads (marked in red)

drahoslove wrote:

Defenz0r, thank you, your stats are nice,

I actually created very similar stats for myself, I didn't share it because it is only accessible from within my local network - it was easier to implement like that and it is probably better because I should consider my daily schedule to be kind of sensitive data, I think.

But I like the monthly/daily goals feature - I think I'm gonna copy that idea

And sure, you can buy as many M1 mac minis as you'd like, but it is, in my opinion, a waste of money for it to be used as a single-purpose device. What you save on power consumption will take forever to pay for the difference in price compared to a similar mini PC powerful enough to run Pianoteq smoothly.

Cool.

About computing:

But isn't the current Raspberry Pi Model limited by 128 polyphony?
That's why I wanted to wait for the upcoming model.
Do you ever feel it?

Using Raspberry PI 4b with 64 bit OS I have no problems with 128 or 256 polyphony

Defenz0r wrote:

Yea, I definitely don’t use it only for PianoTeq. Also, your estimation is not accurate.
The Mac Mini (M1) requires 6W under idle and around 12-20w when running CineBench. I remember that from a Video.
With much effort you will be able to load it with 40Watts and more, but for my usage, it would be at low load most of the time, making me able to embrace bigger processing power at a lower wattage than the pi would, if you would scale it to the performance that I need. Excluding the monitor of course.

Also take into Account that you would need many raspberri pi’s to make up for it…
I literally have the money, so it kinda makes sense to me.
Also as I am selling my iMac 2019 late I9 5K off as I dislike mirrors haha.

You are mixing it together.
I was never comparing Raspberry pi to anything in terms of consumption, (I'm not even sure what the consumption of Rpi is)

I was only talking about the difference between M1 Mac mini vs similarly powerful intel/amd mini PC. (and by "similarly powerful" I mean "being able to run Pianoteq with high polyphony" not necessary "with the same CineBench score")
You are right that the Mac mini is about 6W when idle, but the alternative intel mini PC is about 20-25W when idle (thus my estimate of approximately  difference of 15-20W between those two)

And I was assuming you'd be using it solely for this purpose of running Pianoteq and nothing else (since you wanted to buy two of them).

If it makes sense for you, sure, buy it Nothing wrong with that.
It is just strange that you wanted another opinion and now it looks like you are mad that I have a different opinion than you have

You are right reflective displays are evil

I have no good excuse but to blame it on my headache I have since a month…
Yea I am not mad, I am quite happy we have this talk.
A one purpose device is good and all, but I think since I also am picky about latency, and want to use an external DAC, I might stay away from the Raspberry Pi.

I am used to use 192khz at 128 samples.
Internal rate was 48khz.

Reason is that the total delay is determined by 1/sample freq*buffer
But that’s only if I have it right in the memory right now haha.

Yea, I definitely don’t use it only for PianoTeq. Also, your estimation is not accurate.
The Mac Mini (M1) requires 6W under idle and around 12-20w when running CineBench. I remember that from a Video.
With much effort you will be able to load it with 40Watts and more, but for my usage, it would be at low load most of the time, making me able to embrace bigger processing power at a lower wattage than the pi would, if you would scale it to the performance that I need. Excluding the monitor of course.

Also take into Account that you would need many raspberri pi’s to make up for it…
I literally have the money, so it kinda makes sense to me.
Also as I am selling my iMac 2019 late I9 5K off as I dislike mirrors haha.

You are mixing it together.
I was never comparing Raspberry pi to anything in terms of consumption, (I'm not even sure what the consumption of Rpi is)

I was only talking about the difference between M1 Mac mini vs similarly powerful intel/amd mini PC. (and by "similarly powerful" I mean "being able to run Pianoteq with high polyphony" not necessary "with the same CineBench score")
You are right that the Mac mini is about 6W when idle, but the alternative intel mini PC is about 20-25W when idle (thus my estimate of approximately  difference of 15-20W between those two)

And I was assuming you'd be using it solely for this purpose of running Pianoteq and nothing else (since you wanted to buy two of them).

If it makes sense for you, sure, buy it Nothing wrong with that.
It is just strange that you wanted another opinion and now it looks like you are mad that I have a different opinion than you have

You are right reflective displays are evil