Yes, I meant a store bought CD, not something I recorded, sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

Michael

Beto,

A lot of times, I've heard what I'd consider good sound from digital pianos. Usually it's on a live music TV show, the Grammy awards, or something like that. At a live concert I can only recall once when the digital piano sounded great, usually it wasn't good at all. So, I think it can be done, with some efffort and knowledge, but usually isn't.

At home, I've taken both Ivory and Pianoteq, and played them through different speaker systems and amps. To compare the piano sound I'm getting, I'll then play some recordings. Using a hifi system I can get both to sound great. Using good pro gear only the recording sounds great, and Ivory/PTeq don't sound good at all. Perhaps it's too much midrange emphasis, the tonal spectrum being too spread out, or whatever, I don't know.

So I suspect that it's the processing that goes into a recording- compression, normalization and the like- that makes the difference.

Michael

Michael, I dont quite understand what you mean by the "recordings" (the ones that sounded good). Are these a CD? or a recording you made of the playing (or a recording of direct sound output from Pianoteq?). BTW I did once hear a really good sound from my keyboard (Roland GX-300) when it was put thru a PA system in a large public hall. I could not believe how beautiful the sound was (unfortunately my playing quality did not match the sound quality). So it can be done. Maybe I will ask the sound engineer who did it.

A lot of times, I've heard what I'd consider good sound from digital pianos. Usually it's on a live music TV show, the Grammy awards, or something like that. At a live concert I can only recall once when the digital piano sounded great, usually it wasn't good at all. So, I think it can be done, with some efffort and knowledge, but usually isn't.

At home, I've taken both Ivory and Pianoteq, and played them through different speaker systems and amps. To compare the piano sound I'm getting, I'll then play some recordings. Using a hifi system I can get both to sound great. Using good pro gear only the recording sounds great, and Ivory/PTeq don't sound good at all. Perhaps it's too much midrange emphasis, the tonal spectrum being too spread out, or whatever, I don't know.

So I suspect that it's the processing that goes into a recording- compression, normalization and the like- that makes the difference.

Michael

Some late night ramblings - shoot me down is you wish - I have thick skin:

The only instrument I can think of that is by nature a stereo instrument would be a pipe organ with its pipes covering a large wall.

[....]

While a piano has a relatively large sound board compared to other instruments with sound boards, it's essentially a mono sound source.

Any thoughts on this?

Glenn

Glenn: I disagree completely with mono idea - well, I think that was kind of late night provocation, am I right? In my opinion piano isn't neither mono nor stereo but if you have to choose one, take stereo for sure! Think about sitting on front of a grand with lid open: sound is multidimensional, that's for sure. How many speakers do you need to reach the same feeling? I don't know. Roland's V-piano has possibility to use 4 speakers but how well it works? I don't that either. Anyway test - if you haven't yet done it - two monitor's setup against (no matter how good) mono monitor. I'll promise you will choose stereo setup. When two speakers are well placed and EQ-configured they can "fool" you quite nicely that sound is coming under your fingers, not from one/two sources. And with mono (or one amp-system) there's always problem of placing: where to put the monitor? In front of you? With two monitors placing is easy: one to left and one to right and both towards your ears. In fact positioning is VERY important: put them same level as your ears and also quite close to you. F***in up stage piano sound is very easy with far away floor monitors... That's why I don't ever thrust those guys who promise to handle monitoring - I bring my own with me.

Maybe it's just a question of buying the best quality full-range amps you can.

I'm glad many people posted in this topic, thank to all who posted here.  But the mistery it's still here, and no explanation fully solved that.

I think that even the best sampled library if connected to a stage piano will still have that problem of the sound on stage.

Man has reached the moon but can't reproduce a piano sound on stage.     :-(

I can't believe in 21 century, with digital age in full power, we are talking about the high diffcult to just reproduce a damn piano sound in a place.

Can you put a CD with a piano recording in a reasonable sound system and have a sound that do not sound like a crap?   Yes we can.
So why would be so difficult to reproduce a damn piano sound while playing a stage piano???

I saw Elton John performing in a stage piano, a Youtube video.  Ohhn God, that was a "sin".

If the top sound enginiers, who prepare the sound system to the worldwide famous performances, and have a huge budget to spent with sound quality,  cannot do a good final sound, I think no one can do.

You have to wonder what the engineers in these companies that make keyboard amps (mentioning no names)  think when they actually hear the output when they test them for quality in their labs. Especially when other parts of the company must have spend so much development effort in generating a nice audio signal in the first place (not of course as nice as PianoTeq

I have just bought PianoTeq3 and am amazed by the quality of the sound (I can hear strings throbbing as they die away - never heard that before other than on a real piano). It has changed the way that I play. And the Erard piano is so beautiful. Thank you MODARTT.

But I want to play the piano out on gigs. When I put the output through an amp (Roland KC-150) it sounds terrible, as if playing in a box. (KC-350 is no better). I have had this problem for all of the piano sounds I have ever tried over the last 2 years (GX-300, JV1080, TG77). Sounds fine thru headphone and thru PA systems. but thru these amps - hopeless. Even at home.

David, when using amps and loudspeakers (contrarily to headphones), I think it is important to start with a very dry sound. I suggest that you try some of the driest presets, such as “C3 Close Mic”, “Erard Under Lid”, “YC5 Studio Close Mic”, turn the reverb off, and eventually increase the “Sound Speed” at its maximum to the right.

Well, late nights are good for rambling.

I think a lot of it's in how we define stereo. A basic definition is the use of two microphones to get a ' three dimensional' effect.

I'd argue that any physical acoustic instrument is three dimensional in every way by it's very nature. Sound radiates, reflects off surfaces, etc, there's time delay, there's the effect of our hearing sound/instruments with two opposing ears. Stereo sound reproduction over speakers is just an attempt at duplicating what already exists in nature. Surround sound, quadraphonic etc are other attempts.

I can't argue that a piano, or a guitar, or any instrument is stereo, because 'stereo' is just a poor approximation of the sensation of hearing an acoustic instrument. My opinion, not meaning to be argumentative..

Michael

Good points.  Not argumentative.

If DP manufacturers "align" the bass towards one channel, and treble towards the other (and it seems they do), then I'm asking if this couldn't be a part of the problem when it comes to playing live with a DP?

In Pianoteq, I use two mics - one above and one below the piano.  I don't sense much if any separation between bass and treble (when I sit at the computer with a pair of near field monitors).  Yet I seem to with my own DP's internal sound.  Or am I imagining it?  When one sweeps through an arpeggio from bass to treble, one gets an overwhelming sensation that the sound starts on our left and sweeps to the right.  Having owned a grand for twenty-odd years, I felt this.  But further reflection and observation has led me to rethink this.

It's bothering me that an acoustic grand can be miced and not seem to be problematic, but DP's don't work as well.  Why?

G

I think a lot of it's in how we define stereo. A basic definition is the use of two microphones to get a ' three dimensional' effect.

I'd argue that any physical acoustic instrument is three dimensional in every way by it's very nature. Sound radiates, reflects off surfaces, etc, there's time delay, there's the effect of our hearing sound/instruments with two opposing ears. Stereo sound reproduction over speakers is just an attempt at duplicating what already exists in nature. Surround sound, quadraphonic etc are other attempts.

I can't argue that a piano, or a guitar, or any instrument is stereo, because 'stereo' is just a poor approximation of the sensation of hearing an acoustic instrument. My opinion, not meaning to be argumentative..

Michael

In my ears amplified music NEVER sounds REALLY good compared to non-amplified acoustic music.

Unfortunately in modern music practice that is often not an option.
My unamplified grand piano sounds beautiful, but Pianoteq is my second best choice if amplification is necessary. I think it is easier to get a good amplified sound on stage using Pianoteq than when using (good and expensive) microphones and a real (grand) piano. Good miking and mixing is a difficult job that is often done ... well ... less than perfect ;-)

Some late night ramblings - shoot me down is you wish - I have thick skin:

The only instrument I can think of that is by nature a stereo instrument would be a pipe organ with its pipes covering a large wall.

While a piano has a relatively large sound board compared to other instruments with sound boards, it's essentially a mono sound source.

Saxes, violins, guitars, whatever you choose, they are not stereo.

Hopefully I don't rile anyone's feathers with this, but most of us have been conditioned to think (and believe) that the bass sounds come from the left side of the piano, and treble from the right.

Hmmm, how do we explain the fact that the bass and treble strings in a grand piano cross each other?  And in some grands (Steinway), the treble bridge curves back towards the keyboard end, so that it's semi-parallel with the main bridge (treble strings under bass strings).  Many grands have two bridges, but the Steinway has connected the two connected into one continuous bridge.

With this in mind, how can the bass sounds come from the left and the treble from the right?

I'm wondering if the problems stem from the fact that digital pianos have stereo separation between bass and treble, whereas acoustic pianos have no left and right channel.

Jazz trios play on stage with amplification, but they generally use an acoustic piano, and even though there may be two mics on the piano, they can't really create left and right separation.  But digital pianos are forced to use left/right separation.

Any thoughts on this?

Glenn

Can you put a CD with a piano recording in a reasonable sound system and have a sound that do not sound like a crap?   Yes we can.
So why would be so difficult to reproduce a damn piano sound while playing a stage piano???

I saw Elton John performing in a stage piano, a Youtube video.  Ohhn God, that was a "sin".

If the top sound enginiers, who prepare the sound system to the worldwide famous performances, and have a huge budget to spent with sound quality,  cannot do a good final sound, I think no one can do.

Beto: there's a couple of things you have to take in account. One, live we almost all the time deal with mono signal paths, but stage pianos are mostly sampled in stereo.To "mono" the signal, you take it from the L jack and IMO it always sucks big time because of the way they sum both channels (phase cancellation). I always use hi fi stereo monitors. Here comes the second thing, which is that live we use stage monitors of fairly high SPL rate, which use horn coupled tweeters (drivers in fact) that can sound awfully bad with pianos because of ringing of both the driver and the horn itself in the midrange, not to speak of the crossover network, which could cause very bad phase distortion and, if passive, ringing. I would definitly use studio monitors with phenolic or silk tweeters very close maybe on top of the piano itself, and everything goes just fine. One more: using stereo "combo" amps like Rolands or so, I founded that the speakers use to be too close each other and it definitely messes the stereo field, many times producing severe  phase cancellation. Hope this help !

I'm in agreement here pretty much. It's got to be stereo piano that I'M hearing, regardless of whether the front of house system is stereo or mono. So I'll rig up a second amp for myself.

At least with stereo we've got a shot at making ourselves sound good. And, as romantic said, the speakers are critical too. That's a hard call. I've got two small Soundtech speakers, each with a 10" and a piezo tweeter, and they sound better, and more natural, than my more expensive 15" 3-ways. Maybe it is the drivers, and too much midrange, I haven't figured that out yet.

Michael

mooks, I have tried in my previous sets ups using two separate amps, one per channel, each being mono, so no mixing. Apart from the pleasing effect of stereo placement keys it still sounds like in a box. I could try this with Pianotec i guess.

Ecaroh, i cannot get any decent sound in any direction, even in my quiet room at home. I have tried to cut out a specific frequency band via the GEQ, (the amp is obviously booming at that frequency). which helps a bit but it is still nothing like the sound that is actually coming out of the synth. Maybe more experimentation on my part will help. I just dont understand why a manufacturer would build and sell a "keyboard amplifier" that severely distorts the sound.

thank you for the replies

I know exactly what you mean. Most (maybe 90%) of those so called keyboard amps aren't capable to give a good acoustic piano sound. One thing is that this stereo/mono thing but that doesn't tell the whole story. I've tested few and same conclusion: there's no EQ setting for piano. My stage-choise has been using two monitors (stereo) setup and my left monitor is littlebit bigger giving more bass. I also mix there some other band if it is needed. On left side I use Yamaha MSR-100 and right side I use  TC Helicon's VSM300XT. These two give me enough flexibility to make my sound tolerable (many times not very good still). Both of them has their own EQ.