Key Fumbler wrote:

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

No, it is modelled in all modern grand pianos, only on the historical pianos it is a sample (we kept samples for the historical pianos because they were so particular that it was simpler to provide samples).

So when you morph blend the characteristics of one of the historic instruments models with a modern piano model what happens with the  pedals?

This is indeed one of the several special cases where morphing is not smooth, in that one switches to the instrument properties of the one having the strongest weight in the recipe. Other similar examples: number of microphones, effects, choice of pedals, etc.

Thanks for the explanation. That explains why the priority/order changes the sounds.
I am enjoying the new morphing feature. Thanks.

I have shared three simple blended piano instruments in the FXP section, at least two of which use the historic pianos.
I've matched up FX in some of my blended instruments, and matched up features such as string lengths anyway, or slightly tweaked to taste.

Surprised more people haven't shared a few of their blended creations. Then again maybe it's because I'm more of a synth guy than any kind of proper pianist.

Maybe it's still early days, or maybe they don't want to share their unique sounds, which is perfectly understandable too.

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

So that's the explanation: if you lower the velocity curve, the notes become quiter but not the sustain pedal noise, and consequently that pedal noise becomes relatively louder with respect to the notes, which gets particularly noticeable if you simultaneously increase the general volume to compensate for the lower volume coming from the velocity curve.

In other words, you have two components, both need to be adjusted consistently. Of course one could suggest that the velocity curve itself influences the sustain pedal noise, but this would be a bit strange as this noise itself has its own volume control in the Action section.

The conclusion here is that if you lower the velocity curve, you may want to lower the sustain pedal noise also.

Thanks for troubleshooting this and explaining all the factors at play! This explanation makes sense to me.

I think in my case, I was aiming for pianissimo, so even though I didn't modify the velocity curve, the sustain pedal noise sounded relatively louder.

Yes, I understand. The same happens BTW on a real acoustic piano: if you only play in the ppp-p range, the relative loudness of the sustain pedal noise with respect to the notes will be higher too.

Nevertheless, thank you navindra for your observations, we will keep them in mind during the next update.

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

thiesdewaard wrote:

It occurred to me today that the sustain pedal sound is a short sampled soundbite.

No, it is modelled in all modern grand pianos, only on the historical pianos it is a sample (we kept samples for the historical pianos because they were so particular that it was simpler to provide samples).

So when you morph blend the characteristics of one of the historic instruments models with a modern piano model what happens with the  pedals?

This is indeed one of the several special cases where morphing is not smooth, in that one switches to the instrument properties of the one having the strongest weight in the recipe. Other similar examples: number of microphones, effects, choice of pedals, etc.

Have you calibrated any, any of your pedal response, velocity wise?

On my side, I haven't calibrated anything. I find the calibration tools too confusing or not really that useful but perhaps I need invest more in this?

My pedal has a full range response, but with my skill level I wouldn't know the difference... I don't use partial pedaling.

I'm very satisfied with the non-calibrated performance, and given my only complaint is the sustain pedal noise, I can just lower the DB on that for my individual case.

So that's the explanation: if you lower the velocity curve, the notes become quiter but not the sustain pedal noise, and consequently that pedal noise becomes relatively louder with respect to the notes, which gets particularly noticeable if you simultaneously increase the general volume to compensate for the lower volume coming from the velocity curve.

In other words, you have two components, both need to be adjusted consistently. Of course one could suggest that the velocity curve itself influences the sustain pedal noise, but this would be a bit strange as this noise itself has its own volume control in the Action section.

The conclusion here is that if you lower the velocity curve, you may want to lower the sustain pedal noise also.

Thanks for troubleshooting this and explaining all the factors at play! This explanation makes sense to me.

I think in my case, I was aiming for pianissimo, so even though I didn't modify the velocity curve, the sustain pedal noise sounded relatively louder.

Since Pianoteq has two (or more?) equalizers, one that feeds in to the model and one that is more traditional... I wonder if the same concept could apply to the velocity curve: If you check a box, changes to the velocity curve feed into the model, adjusting relative noises, etc... might be overkill given that no one else has any complaints about the noises though.

thiesdewaard wrote:

It occurred to me today that the sustain pedal sound is a short sampled soundbite.

No, it is modelled in all modern grand pianos, only on the historical pianos it is a sample (we kept samples for the historical pianos because they were so particular that it was simpler to provide samples).

So when you morph blend the characteristics of one of the historic instruments models with a modern piano model what happens with the  pedals?

Those things mentioned (velocity curve, and Prelude) are exacerbated in navindras' case, since listening also on iPad means, lots more treble than anything else which means hearing lots of treble pedal swoosh, less meat.

My 2c.. If anything maybe just some recording presets could do with a fractional reduction of noises - but not sure the Preludes warrant that?

Preludes are player-like perspective, close up and with extra mic on bass for a charming balance, also boosted as Chopin87 mentions, quite nicely in ways to showcase a sort of "flagship timbre" of the instrument (it always worked that way for me when trying the pianos).. less pedal might make many new listeners hear it those rightly fulsome presets as less authentic if noises were reduced too much maybe. 

All this is always fascinating - but everything is about right for my purposes. Esp. since, the issue brought up does seem mostly that navindras' iPad and use of player presets (instead of 'recording-type' presets) are at the heart of it.

@Navindra BTW, if you generally like the sound of the example by MarieJ, and have the C. Bechstein DG, try out "Recording 2" preset - It has similar mic setup to the one MaryJ used, but I use this preset for especially clean piano a lot. Noises are low (-2 and -3dB), it's not too reverb rich nor raw - I love it esp. for rendering performances.

Yeah - totally I forget which nice old but too expensive sampled piano from a long time ago, caught my attention at the time because it was all about how 'close up' and full of character and piano action noises it was. Felt like you could hear the smoke filled room and it might have been inspiring. In hindsight, might have used it for one hip-hop loop, or 2 - since the noise the noise the noise was definitely impossible to unhear - and also impossible to lower or edit out in any way. Really glad to have Pianoteq's unique abilities to adjust for any fine details instead.

Main relevance of that, was the Pianoteq Prelude presets beat that piano out and sold me because they still had some realistic noise and great character yet ultimately more tasteful and editable

This is definitely a good point. I think 'recording' type presets are the ones which could suit just a fractional reduction in noise, if any

[Edit to add 'filled room']

It occurred to me today that the sustain pedal sound is a short sampled soundbite.

No, it is modelled in all modern grand pianos, only on the historical pianos it is a sample (we kept samples for the historical pianos because they were so particular that it was simpler to provide samples).

It occurred to me today that the sustain pedal sound is a short sampled soundbite. Could we, in the next update, please get the possibility to replace it with our own? I would like to use a really loud sampled sneeze, to enhance the feeling of audience present. Or a well-recorded mooing cow, or a toilet being flushed - they could add just that little je-ne-sais-quoi to the performance...

;-)

The spirit of Spike Jones lives on!

Perhaps we need another option in the voting: 'It depends on the preset'?

;-)

The preset also has a generous EQ boost around the higher frequencies which is something you want to avoid if there is dampers noise.

Good observation. Then maybe that preset deserves -3 dB by default on the sustain pedal noise.

MarieJ was kind enough to share that this is the Steinway Model B Prelude preset and the only thing that has been customized is the velocity curve (which she obtained from the forum here).

So that's the explanation: if you lower the velocity curve, the notes become quiter but not the sustain pedal noise, and consequently that pedal noise becomes relatively louder with respect to the notes, which gets particularly noticeable if you simultaneously increase the general volume to compensate for the lower volume coming from the velocity curve.

In other words, you have two components, both need to be adjusted consistently. Of course one could suggest that the velocity curve itself influences the sustain pedal noise, but this would be a bit strange as this noise itself has its own volume control in the Action section.

The conclusion here is that if you lower the velocity curve, you may want to lower the sustain pedal noise also.

Thank you navindra for this link. The sustain pedal noise is indeed too loud in that example. Do you think default settings were used? I just tried a couple of builtin presets without finding one with such a high level of sustain pedal noise...

Note that the Recording presets often have the sustain pedal noise set a bit lower than in the main preset. For example, it is set at 0 dB in NY Steinway Model D, but at -3 dB in NY Steinway D Classical Recording, -11 dB in NY Steinway D Studio Recording.

MarieJ was kind enough to share that this is the Steinway Model B Prelude preset and the only thing that has been customized is the velocity curve (which she obtained from the forum here).

I also had the same experience with sustain pedal noise being too loud on my own recording with the Bechstein Prelude -- it was customized quite a bit though I didn't touch the noise setting. I never noticed the issue until it was too late.

My guess is that you are experiencing the same thing I did -- the noise becomes more prominent on certain devices versus others. In my case, my iPad Pro makes the noise very prominent.

I did suspect the setting was already different for different presets -- thanks for confirming! That's definitely the right approach.