I'm a happy owner of a pair of Adam Audio T7V (7" woofer that goes down to 40Hz, and a ribbon tweeter that goes up to 25Khz) on my home studio.
The sound is pristine and accurate. They got a pair of switches for high and low freqs adjustments for room correction, but I haven´t needed to use them because they work great in my room with a passive monitor controller from Palmer.
For Pianoteq, using a volume level close to a real piano, some presets sound amazing (specially the Petrof Mistral "Jazz Recording" preset... sounds like you have a real instrument in front of you instead of a lifeless controller just from the go).

I've tried the bigger brother, the T8V, on a control room of a friends studio, but didn´t noticed quite a difference to my T7V pair.

I got them at head height and about 1,2 meters away from hearing position. They sound pristine with any kind of music, from Classical, Opera to Jazz and R&R.

For my liking, I wouldn't go for a 2.1 solution, because it's not easy to achieve a good balance having an independent subwoofer, too much to fiddle and you never get the sensation of "Yeah, it's there"... Nope, you get a contant feeling that it's not quite balanced...

BEST REGARDS

I personally wouldn't recommend big woofers for untreated rooms, they move plenty of air and it's easier to have unwanted reflections. The MTM have got 2x3" woofers and the tweeter in the middle, I think this makes a good combo to get loud and direct sound.

Also, they're provided with a nice DSP to adjust their frequencies according to the room response (via mic).

It's true that Pianoteq generally sounds better through headphones but I prefer to listen through my MTM, therefore I most of the times end up changing the mic setup within Pianoteq so I can get decent and present sound through them, a lot of trying and tweaking but it helps a lot in case you haven't tried.

Once you get to a sound of your taste, you'll just stick to it as your one to go.

bm wrote:

Gilles wrote:

Wow! I thought I was a bit extreme with my servo-controlled 15" sub but you outdid me...

Mine is less subtle seen here in my music listening room with my B&W speakers that have two back-firing long-throw woofers so I keep the sub crossover at 40Hz. It's also very heavy to move of course. I don't use it directly with the keyboard, only play with headphones in another room.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/s4j8DNsw4Z2W9DWs8

I hope your neighbours enjoy your booming attic...

In fact the result is not very noisy for the neighborhood because I have a layer of glass wool which insulates my tiles from my attic and a thin layer of air between the inclined plane and the inclined part of the box. (At least at an audiophile listening level, beyond that it is not very pleasant to see the plaster fall from my ceiling ..)
This sub is mainly used with old Ruark Equinox hi-fi speakers, and in addition for spatialization, small 2-way Sony with fiberglass 5" woofer, and old Cabasse speakers with 12" closed woofer to slightly reinforce the bottom midrange ..  + 2 previous subs Martin Logan grotto i (10").
With The use of a total of 6 dome tweeters largely avoids the still somewhat directional effect of these speakers.
The real difficulty is to balance all these speakers well and to equalize them as independently as possible before a global equalization from a laptop (use of the free APO equalizer which has an unlimited number of usable parameters).

Bruno

I hope you had a look at my photo because Google just removed it. I used my Android phone that took 3 shots and when trying to remove two, Google removed everything...grrrr.

I can reshoot them if needed.

I had time to see your photo ... a beautiful equipment indeed ...

Bruno

Gilles wrote:

Wow! I thought I was a bit extreme with my servo-controlled 15" sub but you outdid me...

Mine is less subtle seen here in my music listening room with my B&W speakers that have two back-firing long-throw woofers so I keep the sub crossover at 40Hz. It's also very heavy to move of course. I don't use it directly with the keyboard, only play with headphones in another room.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/s4j8DNsw4Z2W9DWs8

I hope your neighbours enjoy your booming attic...

In fact the result is not very noisy for the neighborhood because I have a layer of glass wool which insulates my tiles from my attic and a thin layer of air between the inclined plane and the inclined part of the box. (At least at an audiophile listening level, beyond that it is not very pleasant to see the plaster fall from my ceiling ..)
This sub is mainly used with old Ruark Equinox hi-fi speakers, and in addition for spatialization, small 2-way Sony with fiberglass 5" woofer, and old Cabasse speakers with 12" closed woofer to slightly reinforce the bottom midrange ..  + 2 previous subs Martin Logan grotto i (10").
With The use of a total of 6 dome tweeters largely avoids the still somewhat directional effect of these speakers.
The real difficulty is to balance all these speakers well and to equalize them as independently as possible before a global equalization from a laptop (use of the free APO equalizer which has an unlimited number of usable parameters).

Bruno

I hope you had a look at my photo because Google just removed it. I used my Android phone that took 3 shots and when trying to remove two, Google removed everything...grrrr.

I can reshoot them if needed.

Wow! I thought I was a bit extreme with my servo-controlled 15" sub but you outdid me...

Mine is less subtle seen here in my music listening room with my B&W speakers that have two back-firing long-throw woofers so I keep the sub crossover at 40Hz. It's also very heavy to move of course. I don't use it directly with the keyboard, only play with headphones in another room.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/s4j8DNsw4Z2W9DWs8

I hope your neighbours enjoy your booming attic...

In fact the result is not very noisy for the neighborhood because I have a layer of glass wool which insulates my tiles from my attic and a thin layer of air between the inclined plane and the inclined part of the box. (At least at an audiophile listening level, beyond that it is not very pleasant to see the plaster fall from my ceiling ..)
This sub is mainly used with old Ruark Equinox hi-fi speakers, and in addition for spatialization, small 2-way Sony with fiberglass 5" woofer, and old Cabasse speakers with 12" closed woofer to slightly reinforce the bottom midrange ..  + 2 previous subs Martin Logan grotto i (10").
With The use of a total of 6 dome tweeters largely avoids the still somewhat directional effect of these speakers.
The real difficulty is to balance all these speakers well and to equalize them as independently as possible before a global equalization from a laptop (use of the free APO equalizer which has an unlimited number of usable parameters).
The settings are a bit tedious, but the result with Pianoteq, Organteq (as also my other sound sources) justify this effort ...

Bruno

I think more and more that the addition of a very large sub (well equalized) can bring a very clearly improved listening quality for both Pianoteq and Organteq.

Even if in my opinion listening to headphones is still much better,  I recently had the experience of adding an 18 "sub to my audio system in a 525-liter bass-reflex box, in a sub-slope of my roof. (Dayton driver um18-22) all controlled by a dedicated MiniDSP Power Ice 250 amplifier (630 W rms into 4 ohms) equipped with a DAC allowing the configuration of 20 parametric equalizers at frequencies starting at 10 Hz. Such a sub can thus remain completely mute above 60 Hz while absorbing the main frequencies resonance of the room (here about 30m2 under an attic under the roof).

The consistency of the last octave of the piano is thus much more fleshy, more woody, with a better projection of the bass than with a monitor or even a dedicated sub of classic size.
The only problem is of course on the size but ultimately not so disastrous in a room where the box follows the shape of the inclined plane of the roof in a space which would have remained unused; However, you must not have to move too often such a box whose weight with its 20kg speaker here is around 170Kg ...

I would have thought at first sight this solution especially useful for organ, in fact it is quite also for the piano, this instrument also having resonances which are not limited to those of the harmonics of its strings, well below 26hz ...

link: https://photos.app.goo.gl/aJBNuCgzBeKPrxpEA

Bruno

Wow! I thought I was a bit extreme with my servo-controlled 15" sub but you outdid me...

Mine is less subtle seen here in my music listening room with my B&W speakers that have two back-firing long-throw woofers so I keep the sub crossover at 40Hz. It's also very heavy to move of course. I don't use it directly with the keyboard, only play with headphones in another room.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/s4j8DNsw4Z2W9DWs8

I hope your neighbours enjoy your booming attic...

Even if in my opinion listening to headphones is still much better,  I recently had the experience of adding an 18 "sub to my audio system in a 525-liter bass-reflex box, in a sub-slope of my roof. (Dayton driver um18-22) all controlled by a dedicated MiniDSP Power Ice 250 amplifier (630 W rms into 4 ohms) equipped with a DAC allowing the configuration of 20 parametric equalizers at frequencies starting at 10 Hz. Such a sub can thus remain completely mute above 60 Hz while absorbing the main frequencies resonance of the room (here about 30m2 under an attic under the roof).

The consistency of the last octave of the piano is thus much more fleshy, more woody, with a better projection of the bass than with a monitor or even a dedicated sub of classic size.
The only problem is of course on the size but ultimately not so disastrous in a room where the box follows the shape of the inclined plane of the roof in a space which would have remained unused; However, you must not have to move too often such a box whose weight with its 20kg speaker here is around 170Kg ...

I would have thought at first sight this solution especially useful for organ, in fact it is quite also for the piano, this instrument also having resonances which are not limited to those of the harmonics of its strings, well below 26hz ...

link: https://photos.app.goo.gl/aJBNuCgzBeKPrxpEA

Bruno

These are available in Canada from Studio Economik, which is where I bought mine. I'm very happy with them. See the review at Sound on Sound here: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-kh80-dsp

sigasa wrote:

Can I cut off sub 80Hz frequencies within Pianoteq?? My KEF LS50s are a bit too boomy

Warmest regards,

Chris

Hi Chris. Yes you can, in the effects menu you choose EQ3, and you just pull down the region that makes the boominess. There are also some presets you can choose. I guess the boominess comes from the 80-200 Hz range.

Here is an interesting link regarding EQing a piano. https://producersociety.com/how-to-eq-piano/

Thank you, much appreciated,

Warmest regards,

Chris

Can I cut off sub 80Hz frequencies within Pianoteq?? My KEF LS50s are a bit too boomy

Warmest regards,

Chris

Hi Chris. Yes you can, in the effects menu you choose EQ3, and you just pull down the region that makes the boominess. There are also some presets you can choose. I guess the boominess comes from the 80-200 Hz range.

Here is an interesting link regarding EQing a piano. https://producersociety.com/how-to-eq-piano/

aWc wrote:

Kepijapa wrote:

Well, I guess you all think I am crazy to recommend the Tozzi One Kit from Markaudio-Sota, single driver pure point source speakers.

These speakers look interesting indeed. Don't know if any store has them around here, I'd be curious to take a listen. As good as reviews are, you can only trust your own ears...The roll off at 80Hz could be a concern...maybe the piano would just sound like a smaller piano!
The same company sells a bigger model with more bass extension...but that's the thing, they are bigger!

Well I am afraid it will be difficult to find a shop that has it, but who knows. Markaudio is in HongKong (a bit far away), KFJ audio in UK. Even in Europe it now a pain to get stuff out of UK.

As far as i have been able to find out, there isn’t much sound coming out of an acoustic piano below 80 Hz. Here is a link where you see the spectra (linear vertical scale) of the different piano tones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xjD6SRY8Pg

The A0 makes its first real sound at the third harmonic, a bit above 80 Hz. Well maybe D2 and some more should be considered also, between 60-80 Hz.

I tried to find out how important that is by making a recording directly from pianoteq, and then in Reaper, using an EQ filter to cut of everything below 80 Hz. After that I listen to the full recording and the recording with the missing low frequencies using good headphones (response down to 20 Hz). I should find a way to do a good blind test, but I don’t think I can consistently hear the difference. Maybe, if you know, you can hear a slight difference in attack.  In the low frequency recording there is some barely audible buzzing going on. Anyway, you could always use a Sub, the natural roll of at 80 Hz would combine perfectly. I am thinking of it, but it would destroy the simplicity of the system.

When I first hooked them up I used an old Hifi Receiver which produced a beautiful but much exaggerated bass boost (could only choose Rock, Pop or Jazz for EQ), resulting in very boomy bass. This fullness is actually achieved by boosting bass in 100 to 250 Hz range, and you can just do that by EQ (EQ3 in pianoteq). Now I have a good amplifier, neutral, and sometimes  I use some EQ to boost bass, but in fact it sounds better without, not sure yet, when I just increase below 100 Hz I hardly notice any difference, including using headphones.

Anyway, it just sounds so beautiful. I play now Goldberg variations, the Aria, these first notes, just pure magic. Or Schubert Sonata D894, first movement, some places so beautiful the single notes after the double D major scale run, but also these full FFF chords, there is huge dynamics in it. I just have to put down the headphones and do it over and over again. My youngest son just came in to ask if I could play please a little less loud (piano in 30m2 living room, son at least 15m away with three doors separating us, volume control half way or so).  Due to this pandemic he has online classes, always at home, I can never freely bang on the piano. At  least my wife goes out for a walk from time to time.

Can I cut off sub 80Hz frequencies within Pianoteq?? My KEF LS50s are a bit too boomy

Warmest regards,

Chris

Kepijapa wrote:

Well, I guess you all think I am crazy to recommend the Tozzi One Kit from Markaudio-Sota, single driver pure point source speakers.

These speakers look interesting indeed. Don't know if any store has them around here, I'd be curious to take a listen. As good as reviews are, you can only trust your own ears...The roll off at 80Hz could be a concern...maybe the piano would just sound like a smaller piano!
The same company sells a bigger model with more bass extension...but that's the thing, they are bigger!

Well I am afraid it will be difficult to find a shop that has it, but who knows. Markaudio is in HongKong (a bit far away), KFJ audio in UK. Even in Europe it now a pain to get stuff out of UK.

As far as i have been able to find out, there isn’t much sound coming out of an acoustic piano below 80 Hz. Here is a link where you see the spectra (linear vertical scale) of the different piano tones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xjD6SRY8Pg

The A0 makes its first real sound at the third harmonic, a bit above 80 Hz. Well maybe D2 and some more should be considered also, between 60-80 Hz.

I tried to find out how important that is by making a recording directly from pianoteq, and then in Reaper, using an EQ filter to cut of everything below 80 Hz. After that I listen to the full recording and the recording with the missing low frequencies using good headphones (response down to 20 Hz). I should find a way to do a good blind test, but I don’t think I can consistently hear the difference. Maybe, if you know, you can hear a slight difference in attack.  In the low frequency recording there is some barely audible buzzing going on. Anyway, you could always use a Sub, the natural roll of at 80 Hz would combine perfectly. I am thinking of it, but it would destroy the simplicity of the system.

When I first hooked them up I used an old Hifi Receiver which produced a beautiful but much exaggerated bass boost (could only choose Rock, Pop or Jazz for EQ), resulting in very boomy bass. This fullness is actually achieved by boosting bass in 100 to 250 Hz range, and you can just do that by EQ (EQ3 in pianoteq). Now I have a good amplifier, neutral, and sometimes  I use some EQ to boost bass, but in fact it sounds better without, not sure yet, when I just increase below 100 Hz I hardly notice any difference, including using headphones.

Anyway, it just sounds so beautiful. I play now Goldberg variations, the Aria, these first notes, just pure magic. Or Schubert Sonata D894, first movement, some places so beautiful the single notes after the double D major scale run, but also these full FFF chords, there is huge dynamics in it. I just have to put down the headphones and do it over and over again. My youngest son just came in to ask if I could play please a little less loud (piano in 30m2 living room, son at least 15m away with three doors separating us, volume control half way or so).  Due to this pandemic he has online classes, always at home, I can never freely bang on the piano. At  least my wife goes out for a walk from time to time.

Well, I guess you all think I am crazy to recommend the Tozzi One Kit from Markaudio-Sota, single driver pure point source speakers.

These speakers look interesting indeed. Don't know if any store has them around here, I'd be curious to take a listen. As good as reviews are, you can only trust your own ears...The roll off at 80Hz could be a concern...maybe the piano would just sound like a smaller piano!
The same company sells a bigger model with more bass extension...but that's the thing, they are bigger!