Philippe Guillaume wrote:

construer wrote:

I would like to know, too. I couldn't find the official Ptq cc list either in the manual or on the site. Does anyone have a link to this list?

I'm not sure to understand what you mean by official Ptq cc list... You can find the standard MIDI CC controllers list on the net, see for example https://www.midi.org/specifications-old...ta-bytes-2, and you can assign whatever you want in Pianoteq -> Options -> MIDI.

I meant a list of cc controllers that Pianoteq respond to by default. Like 64, 67, 88... (I believe it is a rather short list.)
This cc16 and cc81 is Yamaha thing (Schubert's midi is recorded on their piano so there are events on those lanes), and I was wondering if Pianoteq responds to them. I manually tested and doubted myself whether I'm doing something wrong. Now, you confirmed it doesn't. It could've saved you some time if we had this list.

Yes, there is a short list by default in Pianoteq, you can see it if you open Options -> MIDI.

construer wrote:

I would like to know, too. I couldn't find the official Ptq cc list either in the manual or on the site. Does anyone have a link to this list?

I'm not sure to understand what you mean by official Ptq cc list... You can find the standard MIDI CC controllers list on the net, see for example https://www.midi.org/specifications-old...ta-bytes-2, and you can assign whatever you want in Pianoteq -> Options -> MIDI.

I meant a list of cc controllers that Pianoteq respond to by default. Like 64, 67, 88... (I believe it is a rather short list.)
This cc16 and cc81 is Yamaha thing (Schubert's midi is recorded on their piano so there are events on those lanes), and I was wondering if Pianoteq responds to them. I manually tested and doubted myself whether I'm doing something wrong. Now, you confirmed it doesn't. It could've saved you some time if we had this list.

I would like to know, too. I couldn't find the official Ptq cc list either in the manual or on the site. Does anyone have a link to this list?

I'm not sure to understand what you mean by official Ptq cc list... You can find the standard MIDI CC controllers list on the net, see for example https://www.midi.org/specifications-old...ta-bytes-2, and you can assign whatever you want in Pianoteq -> Options -> MIDI.

The file "Schubert - Sonata in A Major D. 664 - Leyla Kabuli.mid" is marvelous.
It helps a lot. Thank you, Phillippe.
However, I can't figure out what's the usage of cc81 and cc16.
There is a good use of cc67 to dim the tone color.
And, I guess that cc81 and cc16 must have some amazing effect to the sound.
Can anyone tell me what it is?

Yes, cc67 controls the soft pedal, it is a very important controller (soundwise). cc81 and cc16 are general purpose MIDI controllers, but are not used in the Schubert demo.

The file "Schubert - Sonata in A Major D. 664 - Leyla Kabuli.mid" is marvelous.
It helps a lot. Thank you, Phillippe.
However, I can't figure out what's the usage of cc81 and cc16.
There is a good use of cc67 to dim the tone color.
And, I guess that cc81 and cc16 must have some amazing effect to the sound.
Can anyone tell me what it is?

I would like to know, too. I couldn't find the official Ptq cc list either in the manual or on the site. Does anyone have a link to this list?

We did say the defaults are good

construer wrote:

I would love to have the sound of Schubert's sonata demo [...] It would be great if Modartt shares MIDIs and FX chains for their demos so we can learn from them and recreate sound we like.
Marko

The Schubert Sonata demo https://www.modartt.com/bechstein was recorded with C. Beschstein DG Sweet preset with no other postprocessing, 100% direct from audio export from Pianoteq. For checking your audio configuration, here is the MIDI file that was used: https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Kabuli.mid. Load it in Pianoteq with C. Beschstein DG Sweet and you should have exactly the same sound.

Thank you, Philippe, million times. This was a game changer for me. I struggled so much to figure out what am I doing wrong - MIDI programming or audio processing. Spend so much time working on both in parallel. Once the MIDI was out of picture it took me a weekend to figure out what I should do. Now, my Pianoteq production sounds 'like a record', and I am so grateful for that.

Thank you

Thanks, tmyoung, for the excellent technical info. Over time I've learned to lower my output volume and disable the limiter. Glad to know it's not just me being fussy, I always suspected the limiter was introducing distortion but I couldn't understand why.
A brilliant tool for checking loudness levels is Youlean Loudness Meter - the basic version is free! https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/

Indeed, all sound cards downstream from Pianoteq do not behave in the same way for a maximum level of 0db, especially in the presence of a significant use of equalization in Pianoteq. Some sound cards distort much faster than others. It is therefore more careful to lower the output volume on pianoteq a lot at the beginning (maybe 10db at least), then to raise it only gradually, stopping noticeably before the distortion appears.

Bruno

One other thought: whenever doing production audio work with Pianoteq, I turn off the Limiter and set the Volume to something between -15db and -9db (depending on how many other instruments I'll add to the mix).  The Limiter (because it's doing it's job at high volumes) is on by default as a protection for general users who are just doing playback on a piano (which isn't desirable in a mixing workflow since we're targeting 32-bit float with nearly infinite headroom and the limiter deletes audio data that it thinks is too loud but is actually okay since 32-bit float has more headroom that humans can survive at full volume).  The limiter therefore causes really, really awful distortion to some partials, loud attacks and overtones and its impact on playback is very unpredictable.  I like to give myself a ton of headroom particularly if I'm working in 24-bit instead of 32 (by lower the volume and disabling the limiter) and then I use no compression or eq, and the mixes come out perfectly with little mastering needed at all.  I usually target the K-12 system for solo material, so there's a good blend of loudness and headroom, and K-20 for piano and orchestra mixing (which gives substantially more headroom but requires more amplification so I need to turn up my speakers when doing that).  Then, once I've finalized a mix (which usually involves few or no extra steps), I either normalize to a specific LUFS value between -16db and -14db or normalize to something between -0.1db and -1.5db peak RMS based on what service or standard I'm going to provide a sound file to.  Youtube will automatically normalize your audio for their standards, so anything you plan to only upload there will be normalized automatically and you can skip that step--as long as the audio data isn't clipped anywhere (which it shouldn't be with the volume set lower and the limiter turned off), and they'll make it sound consistent across their catalog.

To tell if the limiter is part of the problem, look at a waveform of the audio output you're mixing.  If there are "flat lines" on some peaks, the limiter has deleted the actual peak.  Another way is looking at a spectrum scope analyzer (several free VSTs are available for that) to see if some partials, overtones, and peaks are getting clipped while others are unaffected during playback.  Compression can cause similar distortion but the peaks tend to still be intact, they're just at the wrong volume.

construer wrote:

I would love to have the sound of Schubert's sonata demo [...] It would be great if Modartt shares MIDIs and FX chains for their demos so we can learn from them and recreate sound we like.
Marko

The Schubert Sonata demo https://www.modartt.com/bechstein was recorded with C. Beschstein DG Sweet preset with no other postprocessing, 100% direct from audio export from Pianoteq. For checking your audio configuration, here is the MIDI file that was used: https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Kabuli.mid. Load it in Pianoteq with C. Beschstein DG Sweet and you should have exactly the same sound.

...and it sounds great when I play the midi file using my Blüthner Model One
Ian

I would love to have the sound of Schubert's sonata demo [...] It would be great if Modartt shares MIDIs and FX chains for their demos so we can learn from them and recreate sound we like.
Marko

The Schubert Sonata demo https://www.modartt.com/bechstein was recorded with C. Beschstein DG Sweet preset with no other postprocessing, 100% direct from audio export from Pianoteq. For checking your audio configuration, here is the MIDI file that was used: https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...Kabuli.mid. Load it in Pianoteq with C. Beschstein DG Sweet and you should have exactly the same sound.

Beemer wrote:

Construer,
I had to read your posts twice to make sure I was not missing something.  You have not said what keyboard you are using, or one at all?  If you are using one have you calibrated in in Pianoteq?  Your sample music when compared to my reference level amplifier is too loud creating distortion.  Your processing makes it impossible to assess the quality.  It would have been better for you to dig out that Chopin for use to hear assuming that you used a calibrated keyboard.
Have you listed to all the Modartt provided Audio Demos?  https://www.modartt.com/pianoteq_audio_demos
If you have and find a problem with them then let us know which ones so we can compare your thoughts with ours.   
Ian

Hi Ian,

thanks for your prolonged interest in my problem.

It is actually funny that you mentiond demos. There was a period in which I tried to match demo sounds. And concluded that either demos are scam or my copy of Pianoteq (updated to the last version) is defective sound wise. Second option seems to me quite ridiculous.

I would love to have the sound of Schubert's sonata demo, but if you compare it with my example: it is waaaay louder (which means it is heavily processed); it has so clear 3rd and 2nd octave - when I compare my out-of-the-box Sweet and any other preset to it, this range sounds like a rumble with barely audible changes in intonation (hence I need to heavily clear it up); and demo overall sounds so wide, clear and present yet massive. My Sweet preset doesn't sound anything like that, not even nearly.

For the example I posted, I didn't use keyboard. I have Casio PX-350M. For 'Serenity' video I did record MIDI live and then edited just pedal (Reaper recorded three lanes of CC64 for some reason). It didn't improve sound. So I went back to editing MIDI files exported from Sibelius. When I finish editing, I go back and adjust velocity curve if needed. Usually because all this processing influence volume of some velocity ranges.

It would be great if Modartt shares MIDIs and FX chains for their demos so we can learn from them and recreate sound we like.

Marko

You have a keyboard that is very capable of being calibrated within Pianoteq.  A starting point for assessing audio quality is to calibrate,  play a standard piano, e.g. Bechstein without applying any effects.  In Pianoteq reduce max volume to -6dB. Set dynamics level so that when playing you are able to achieve ppp to fff.
If you are not happy with the keyboard calibration try manually adjusting the curve slightly at the bottom and top.
I have Steinway and Blüthner sounds and these don't have the Sweet preset you mention.  I would never select anything other than a classical preset when setting Pianoteq up.  I have a friend who has an acoustic Steinway model B.  He played my Pianoteq Steinway and felt it was very authentic.
Your requirement of using effects is not my expertise or interest but I hope you eventually get the sound you want.  I have Pianoteq Standard but I prefer to play my acoustic Blüthner
Ian