I'm actually making a midi keyboard controler using a grand piano action and the PNOSCAN II sensors. I wil describe the entire experience later; too much work actually !

Jeclo1, verifie toi boite mail !!

Now, how to get a used grand piano at a reasonable price ?  After a lot of search on eBay and others, I finally found a grand piano action (no cabinet, no strings, no pedals). Just the keyboard/action mechanism. I built a box to contain that new mechanism and also a pedal system  for the sustain (soft pedal is still to come).  I installed the PNOscan sensors under the keys (10 to 12 hours of work). After a lot of adjustments, I finally played the first notes on my new keyboard. First problem: the noise produced by the hammers hitting the bottom of the box was too loud.  I put a rubber band to reduce the noise but that wasn't enough.  I have heard of the Yamaha system used in their silent piano (a bar that stops the hammers before they hit the strings). I decided to go that way. After a few trials I finally  came to my own custom system and…it works: very less noise. 

Second problem: the velocity was unequal along the entire keyboard. Higher notes were louder than lower notes. And a couple of individual notes were louder to ! PNOscan is a set of sensors to be installed under the keys of the piano keyboard. Each of te 88 sensors scan the movement of each of the 88 keys of the keyboard. Once the movementof  a key is detected, it is converted in MIDI data specifying the note  number played and the speed (velocity) at wich that note have been depressed.  A low speed will result in a low velocity and a high speed will result in a high velocity. That MIDI data is sent to a sound module or soft sampler to be played . I use Ivory II. On a grand piano action, the hammers for the bass notes are bigger than the hammers for higher notes. So if I apply a pressure X to a lower note and the same pressure X to a higher note, the velocity will be less for the lower note compare to the higher note. That problem doesn't exist on a regular digital keyboard. I own a Technic 88 notes digital piano and the velocity is very equal on the entire keyboard. Reason ? the weight  of every key is the same from the lower note to the higher note. QRS company  provided me with a software to calibrate the PNOscan. But I  haven't seen a way to ajust the velocity of notes individally. Just a velocity curve adjustment for the entire keyboard. (If I'm wrong, please let me know).

Actually what I'm trying to do is reduce the size of the hammers for the lower notes and remove some of the lead weight inserted at the base of each key. The goal is to reduce the weight of those notes to get a higher velocity (more speed when depressed). At first sight, the velocity is more equal on the entire keyboard. But I still have a couple notes popping up (too loud). I'm still experimenting. Any help will be very appreciated espacially from people who are familiar with the calibrating software for the PNOscan.

I'm actually making a midi keyboard controler using a grand piano action and the PNOSCAN II sensors. I wil describe the entire experience later; too much work actually !

Great, welcome to the club !

I'm not actually ready for that all financially right now to be honest. About the rail. I don't believe I need the piano mechanics at all. Especially since the PNOscan measures the key velocity but not a hammer's. I'll just need to add some weight to the back of each key to compensate the weight of the mechanics. All I dream about is a really long keys, precision and simplicity. http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3629

Remember anyway that the perferct keyboard controller for playing piano doesn't exist as piano action / sound is very very subjective.
if the action of the free piano you can have please you, yes, the PNOscan can do the trick if you find a way to compensate the lack of the mechanic to keep the action "ok", as part of the action realism is related to the fact the hammers hit the strings.
if you find a way to compensate that, certainly it can work. but i learned with time that the realism of a keyboard doesn't come completly from the action, but the sound as well. depending of the kind of music you play and what to do with it.
for me, as an improvisator, i play different things depending of the keyboard i play on, and the sound i hear .

I'm not actually ready for that all financially right now to be honest. About the rail. I don't believe I need the piano mechanics at all. Especially since the PNOscan measures the key velocity but not a hammer's. I'll just need to add some weight to the back of each key to compensate the weight of the mechanics. All I dream about is a really long keys, precision and simplicity. http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=3629

I rather imagine this has already been tried, not to say thay you couldn't make a better mousetrap.  My belief is the real challange lies in creating a light weight compact keyboard that has the equivalent feel and control of the so called "real thing."  All in all Casio has done a pretty good job.  I think the solution is more in the electronics than the keybed itself.

Thank you so very much for such extended reply. I will think more about it all. Actually I want an ultimate MIDI controller very much. I don't want to mix the real piano and the controller, I'd like to keep them separated. Actually I can get an upright piano for free or close to that, the used one. I can use just the keys from it. That is my way of thinking. Or dreaming... )))

for that you need to have installed the Stop Rail, or what's called the "silent bar" in it. (QRS sells one too).
it's a part who is put in the piano and which will block the acoustic piano sound, so having it working like a real midi controller.
it must be installed by a piano technician who is used to such installation.
and it will make your piano completly silent, and as a real midi keyboard controller.

Thank you very much for the reply.

1) I saw on some of their videos the software interface showing the continuous movements of all the keys. I try to guess, the MIDI protocol does not sent continuous data about the notes, just note on, note off and the velocity. How the software decides where is the "checkpoints" to measure the velocity in between, I guess you can set them manually?
2) Can you set several "checkpoints"?
3) And, can you share a pdf manual about the software?
4) And, do you believe PNOscan is the most hi-end solution for the ultimate piano controller? Sorry for so many questions, got really very excited about it.

Hi again , so many questions, ok here we go :

1) it's working with optical sensor. so the unit calculate all the time the speed of the press and depress of the key while you play like on a midi keyboard, so yes it's Midi Note On and OFf and velocity.
the pedal are sending continuous controller !!! like a FC3 ! but very few DAW / sound are compatible with this feature. so i don't use it.
yes, everything can be set manually but be aware that it can take a lot of time and patience if you want to do that !
i never did it because of my disability and the fact that i had no use in the past of a stop rail (for blocking the acoustic piano sound and hearing only the virtual sound.), something who is really needed to program properly the unit. my way was always to use the real acoustic piano sound while recording. so it never bothered me. on my new piano, for the first time, i'll install a stop rail once the midi will be ready.

2) what do you mean by checkpoints ? i suggest you to contact QRS and ask them these questions, because as said, i'm not an expert of the programming software. until now, i was using his basic features and was using the velocity curves preset in my piano sound and the velocity curve script in kontakt or pianoteq.

3) contact me in private and i'll send it to you or write to QRS. not sure i have the last version of the manual.

4) well, for me, as a pianist, a Midi interface in a piano is the ultimate controller for recordin Piano yes !
i owned a Yamaha S80, a Yamaha Motif, and the relationship is not the same between a machine and a real piano. some of my videos have been recorded with the Motif. the last ones, with the PNOscan and well, the experience is clearly not the same.
i love playing on a real piano , even if it's a bad one. until now, my videos have been done on a very bad piano, tuned at 332hz (lol) a hupdfeld carmen from 1983.
i have now a Yamaha U1 since 2 weeks, and it's a completly other world (in term of piano), and i'm impatient to be ready again to record new tunes .
but even with this cra* piano i had since 30 years, it was by far the best midi controller for recording piano for me. i can't speak for other instruments, as i didn't used it yet for controlling other instruments. i tried it for rhodes, and it's great too. well, it's certainly great for any keyboard instrument. but playing drums or bass on it ? no idea . i only did Piano solo recording with it so far.

sometimes during the recording, a few midi error can happens, like a note who has been recorded with a higher velocity, or the light of the room you are in included some very low velocity notes during the recording, due to the fact it's using optical sensor. but it's very very easy to fix in a DAW/Sequencer.
i check each of my recording once (they are all done in one take) and usually i have 3 or 4 notes to correct on the whole recording.

as said before to avoid that, a proper install is needed.

there are different brand on the market. i can't speak for them. but the "pro" of the PNOscan, is that the unit works well. can be installed by yourself, the QRS one is among the best, can be upgraded to a PNOmation unit in the future.
if you change of piano, well, you remove the unit and install it again in the new one.

the Midi interface in the yamaha or other piano ones are certainly the best because they are factory installed, but i never had the chance to try them, so i can't speak for "them".

but from my point of view, the pro of yamaha or other factory installed midi interface
it's factory installed and perfectly installed.

the cons : if you change of piano, well ... you loose the midi interface with it.
if you want to upgrade the Midi part, well, ... you must change the piano with it
it's very expensive, as you must buy the piano with it and not the reverse.
depending of which version of piano/Midi you buy, you have something not as good as a PNOscan.

for example the SG2 unit at yamaha have No velocity curve programmed except one for their sounds in their sound module. and ... and there is no software to change anything in it if you want to do it.

Hi martyprod!

1) I'd like to know if it is possible to use re-pressing the key, I mean when you does not lift it up completely and press down again from the middle position like a 3-rd sensor for a common piano-controller do? Can it send the note-on again without sending the note-off?

2) Any cons about PNOscan generally?

hi

1) this is something i never noticed, i use the PNOscan in an unusual way (i'm not using it as a silent piano system, but only as a midi output system and never listen to the Midi generated Sound in real time, because of a weird hearing disability). so i always use it while i'm recording myself with the real acoustic Piano sound of my piano.
i will have to test that, one of this day when my new installation will be ready but it's something i never noticed.
except suggesting to watch my videos (as i film myself playing it in real time using both angle), and guessing it by listening, i can't answer to this question yet .
i changed my piano recently and i'm actually reinstalling a second PNOscan in it (the first one i own will be soon on sold as soon as the new installation is finished if you're interested.

2) the main con is not a real "con", it's one for me because it's related to my disability.
it's the lack of already programmed velocity curves in the midi device of the PNOscan.
so if your virtual instrument / sound module doesn't have some velocity curve preset to suit your playing (Pianoteq has this feature) you must program it yourself.
two ways to do it :
- using a software that QRS provide on request to program it in case that the presets already available in the unit doesn't suit your playing. you can program a velocity curve there.
- second way , the most easy one, is to use a Velocity curve Midi plugin like Midi shape shifter for example.

my main advice is to do a proper install (it's pretty easy to install) to avoid any midi error who can happens if the unit is not properly installed.

I'd like to know if it is possible to use re-pressing the key, I mean when you does not lift it up completely and press down again from the middle position like a 3-rd sensor for a common piano-controller do? Can it send the note-on again without sending the note-off?

Any cons about PNOscan generally?

When I saw "Pianoteq", I nearly fell off my chair, but alas, I was able to read fast enough to save myself. ;^)

Greg.