Heinrich wrote:

. . .

Next, I will play both tests over my existing Bose Soundlink Mini, record the output and do the same analysis. Problem is, that the frequency response of these speakers will probably depend heavily on the volume level, especially in the bass region. We will see..

-Heinrich

Do you have a microphone with flat low-bass response, and a room that doesn't have any resonances in that region ?

Those measurements are not easy.

.   Charles

I used a Zoom H1 set to USB-Microphone mode. Placed it some inches in front of the speaker. I googled for the frequency response of the H1 but found only one match at https://www.media-maier.de/index.php/ww...-recorder:

https://www.media-maier.de/images/stori.../h1_16.jpg

Unfortunately the diagram starts only at 70 Hz.

Cannot tell much about the room. Normal living room.
I know that acoustic measurements are not easy, especially without calibrated gear.

As I said earlier, I will stick with the Bose speakers. I got used to their sound, enjoy playing over them and they fit neatly on my VPC1:

https://www.rebehn.net/Pianoteq/IMG_0546.jpeg

-Heinrich

. . .

Next, I will play both tests over my existing Bose Soundlink Mini, record the output and do the same analysis. Problem is, that the frequency response of these speakers will probably depend heavily on the volume level, especially in the bass region. We will see..

-Heinrich

Do you have a microphone with flat low-bass response, and a room that doesn't have any resonances in that region ?

Those measurements are not easy.

.   Charles

I promised to share my listening experience with the Auratone speakers.
Well, it is a bit embarrassing, but the truth is: I sent them back the next day.

I was expecting the need to readjust my hearing habits, but actually it was a shock. The bass fundament was missing completely. This could have been remedied by fiddling with the equaliser, but also there was some strong, unpleasant colouring especially in the range C2 - C3, which I was unwilling to tolerate.

So I will stick with my Bose speakers, which I have enjoyed listening to since I started learning piano 1.5 years ago. Only problem was that one of the speakers failed at very high volumes and also, the range C4 - G5 sounds a bit limp. I approached this by selecting appropriate instrument settings like "Grotrian Player Wide", "Steinway D 3 Mics" or "ANT. Petrof Prelude". I thought I could improve this situation with new speakers.

The Bose speakers may not be honest, or even lie to me, yet I enjoy listening to them, and that's the only thing that counts. Also, they look good. I don't want huge, ugly monitors on stands in front of me.

Anyway, thanks to all who shared there knowledge and advice with me.

-Heinrich

Hi all,

To put an end to this, I tossed a coin yesterday and ordered the Auratone 5C. They will hopefully arrive this week. I will report about my listening experience.

The Bose speakers will be connected to my cheap TV set, where they will certainly do a nice job replacing the inferior built in speakers.

Again, thanks for all the info!

-Heinrich

An excellent place for a Bose system. Almost certainly improving any TV. 
I hope you enjoy Auratone's high end "grot boxes"

To put an end to this, I tossed a coin yesterday and ordered the Auratone 5C. They will hopefully arrive this week. I will report about my listening experience.

The Bose speakers will be connected to my cheap TV set, where they will certainly do a nice job replacing the inferior built in speakers.

Again, thanks for all the info!

-Heinrich

You are almost certainly unaware of just how close a good hi-fi or serious active loudspeaker system can be to the live sound. Relative to a miniature Bose sound like this I would say that quality high fidelity systems (active with or without DSP or passive) are several orders better.
Bose systems are not really for the discerning ear, they are not for people that care about convincing dynamic range, or the most realistic natural sound.  They are very, VERY good at what they do which is mainly marketing but also making relatively capable systems if audibly compromised to discerning ears (golden or otherwise!)  that are visually inoffensive to spouses.

I'm not saying Bose product is bad by any means (they are very clever for what they are), you have to understand the niche it is designed to cater for.

I hope this doesn't sound dismissive but If you want to understand what you have measured and how that relates to sound quality that is a topic for another forum.

Ideally you want loudspeakers that radiate into free space or designed to be used against a good solid wall if the former isn't at all practical in your home.  Speakers sitting on top of a keyboard  creating unwanted resonances is not exactly ideal.

When lockdown has finished try to get to a music shop with quality active speaker systems or a serious Hi-Fi dealer and listen to your pianoteq recordings through a decent system.

If you are happy living with compromised performance for domestic bliss that's fine, just don't fall for the marketing lie, the quality is compromised, but can still be enjoyable.

They are probably better than most speakers Bose ever made, but if you had a larger sub sat Bose system you might miss the bass output - I see you have a tiny toy system - the Auratones should wipe the floor with that.

The speaker system having to sit on the VPC1 is a significant limitation in terms of quality!
I suggest making some space for some proper mini monitor speakers on stands, wall mounted or floor standers. 

If it really has to be teeny tiny speakers consider these:
Genelec 8010a (usually sold as single speakers so budget for a pair!)
https://www.juno.co.uk/products/genelec...itors%20CW

I admit, they are not on par with my 901/IV but I wonder if you have ever heard the Soundlink Mini. I recorded the 88 notes sequence already shown in post #7, upper picture with the Boses and got this picture:

https://www.rebehn.net/Pianoteq/test-soundlink.jpg

At 80 Hz, this does look better than the picture shown in the audiofanzine post.
Would the auratones really "wipe the floor" compared to the Boses?

OTOH one must keep in mind that the Soundlinks probably are heavily dsp'ed, so at higher volume levels, the picture could look completely different. The auratones would surely produce a more honest picture, independent of volume.

While we're at it, I have a question about the frequency response shown in the picture above. I have close to zero knowledge about signal processing and FFTs. I simply loaded the wav file into Audacity and selected "Analyse->Plot Spectrum". Why does the frequency response begin to rise below 50 Hz? If I do longer FFTs, I can even see 5Hz at -39dB. Of course this is an artefact. Do I have a DC offset? Or is it a windowing effect?

As for the Genelec speakers: I'm afraid I don't like their look

Why is this?

Many thanks for your help!

-Heinrich

Key Fumbler wrote:

Manufacturers spec's can be fanciful if they don't give you all the facts.
Firstly the manufacturers specifications for the speakers only quote 80 hz - 15khz, no plus/minus figures.

The top end of that frequency response claim is not a problem, 15khz will cover more than the meaningful output of a piano, and indeed any musical instruments.
However the 80hz figure for the low end could be more of a problem. The manufacturers don't give you the roll off figures for a reason, only claiming that they can reproduce sound down to 80hz.
Looks like they are down a whopping -30dB at 80hz:
https://en.audiofanzine.com/passive-mon...-aura.html

This is really bad news. Actually, more detailed information about the roll off would have been my next question, so thank you very much for the link to the audiofanzine article.

Seems that the auratones are not quite what I need.

Pros:

- small. Would neatly fit on my VPC-1
- passive: can freely select amp, no hassle with noisy built-in amps
- cute, as opposed to JBL Control 1, for example
- probably good, detailed sound

Cons:

- Weak bass, might need to add subwoofer
- Too expensive for something that does not exactly fit my needs

Maybe I will stick with my Boses and repair the faulty one.

Or are there any other suggestions which would meet my Pros-List?

-Heinrich

They are probably better than most speakers Bose ever made, but if you had a larger sub sat Bose system you might miss the bass output - I see you have a tiny toy system - the Auratones should wipe the floor with that.

The speaker system having to sit on the VPC1 is a significant limitation in terms of quality!
I suggest making some space for some proper mini monitor speakers on stands, wall mounted or floor standers. 

If it really has to be teeny tiny speakers consider these:
Genelec 8010a (usually sold as single speakers so budget for a pair!)
https://www.juno.co.uk/products/genelec...itors%20CW

Manufacturers spec's can be fanciful if they don't give you all the facts.
Firstly the manufacturers specifications for the speakers only quote 80 hz - 15khz, no plus/minus figures.

The top end of that frequency response claim is not a problem, 15khz will cover more than the meaningful output of a piano, and indeed any musical instruments.
However the 80hz figure for the low end could be more of a problem. The manufacturers don't give you the roll off figures for a reason, only claiming that they can reproduce sound down to 80hz.
Looks like they are down a whopping -30dB at 80hz:
https://en.audiofanzine.com/passive-mon...-aura.html

This is really bad news. Actually, more detailed information about the roll off would have been my next question, so thank you very much for the link to the audiofanzine article.

Seems that the auratones are not quite what I need.

Pros:

- small. Would neatly fit on my VPC-1
- passive: can freely select amp, no hassle with noisy built-in amps
- cute, as opposed to JBL Control 1, for example
- probably good, detailed sound

Cons:

- Weak bass, might need to add subwoofer
- Too expensive for something that does not exactly fit my needs

Maybe I will stick with my Boses and repair the faulty one.

Or are there any other suggestions which would meet my Pros-List?

-Heinrich

...
Most interesting reading, surely produced with a lot of effort and knowledge!
I must confess that I don't quite have the expertise to fully understand your article.
Yet I would conclude that I would not lose much of the piano sound using speakers starting at 80 Hz.

-Heinrich

Manufacturers spec's can be fanciful if they don't give you all the facts.
Firstly the manufacturers specifications for the speakers only quote 80 hz - 15khz, no plus/minus figures.

The top end of that frequency response claim is not a problem, 15khz will cover more than the meaningful output of a piano, and indeed any musical instruments.
However the 80hz figure for the low end could be more of a problem. The manufacturers don't give you the roll off figures for a reason, only claiming that they can reproduce sound down to 80hz.
Looks like they are down a whopping -30dB at 80hz:
https://en.audiofanzine.com/passive-mon...-aura.html

I think you might find some elements of these pages interesting:

http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/01/10/...put-level/

http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/01/05/...-response/

http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/09/18/...erference/

Of course the desire to reproduce full dynamics of a full size concert piano reasonably accurately at full realistic levels is quite something else to what most of us require from any piano VST, or could even accommodate. Mostly we want a convincing simulcrum at comfortable domestic levels from a sound that doesn't overwhelm our (typically more modest) domestic living spaces.

Most interesting reading, surely produced with a lot of effort and knowledge!
I must confess that I don't quite have the expertise to fully understand your article.
Yet I would conclude that I would not lose much of the piano sound using speakers starting at 80 Hz.

-Heinrich

Could you do this for the highest notes as well? I am curious what is the highest frequency that is played I am talking about harmonics not just a 4K that is the highest note

I am not quite sure what you mean. "not just a 4K" ?? Do you simply want me to play a couple of C8 and do a spectral analysis of it?

-Heinrich

http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/01/10/...put-level/

http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/01/05/...-response/

http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2017/09/18/...erference/

Of course the desire to reproduce full dynamics of a full size concert piano reasonably accurately at full realistic levels is quite something else to what most of us require from any piano VST, or could even accommodate. Mostly we want a convincing simulcrum at comfortable domestic levels from a sound that doesn't overwhelm our (typically more modest) domestic living spaces.