Hi all,

We have released Pianoteq version 6.7.2, which should fix this issue with the sostenuto pedal.

Well... we have updated version 6.7.2 again because the previous fix broke the sostenuto in a different way -- sorry for that.

Hi all,

We have released Pianoteq version 6.7.2, which should fix this issue with the sostenuto pedal.

Thanks very much

We have released Pianoteq version 6.7.2, which should fix this issue with the sostenuto pedal.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...281%29.mid

kalessin wrote:

That said, I have identified an artifact I too would classify as a bug...This behaviour is indeed incorrect, as in this specific scenario releasing sostenuto should sound exactly like releasing sustain. But I still maintain this is a bizarre corner case of little practical import. It would be nice if it got fixed by Modartt, but I wouldn't call it exactly urgent either.

I've reproduced this (Pianoteq 6.7 on Linux).  And agree that it's harmless.  Fixing the bug wouldn't enable you to make any sounds that you can't already make.

It seems that the extra resonance lasts for just over a second after the sostenuto pedal is released, whether that's after the sustain pedal is released or a fraction of a second before.  And if the sostenuto pedal goes down first, there's no problem (for me).

Romariozen, does this answer your question, or are you having problems even when the sostenuto pedal goes down first?  If it's still a problem for you, please post those MIDI files!

I made the links work.

I have also uploaded MIDI

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...econds.mid

I lifted up all pedals simultaneously right after releasing the chord

Note in the second link (where there are 20 notes, MIDI file is relative to this recording), with the first play there is no huge reverb as it is supposed to be because this is prelude without any modifications except for room size 19 m

For some reason I can barely reproduce the same effect today only 1 out of 20 attempts right after switching pianos have a success

https://soundcloud.com/axisforward/2020...12-seconds
https://soundcloud.com/axisforward/2020...11-seconds

I'd really like to hear back from Romariozen about whether we've solved the Pianoteq problem -- I hope we haven't scared them away with this discussion, and I hope the conversation can stay civil and respectful.

Emphatically agreed.

Of course this is absolutely OT and in any case a very weak argument. It not only overly emphasises authorial intent, it also proposes a view of art as something static, while sacrificing the right of an artist to interpreting a work to a fictitious ideal of 'accuracy' or 'authenticity', while in reality there just is no such thing. If you take this argument to its logical conclusion, this would also declare anathema any modern interpretation of Goethe or Shakespeare for example, and while I realise there are people who do just that, I do not think they are doing either author any justice. Especially Shakespeare would probably have some very inventive language for them, but maybe that's just my imagination.

We do play Bach on modern pianos with an iron frame, steel strings and equal temperament in favour of a specially tuned clavichord nowadays, and hopefully pretty much everybody agrees that is not 'mangling' his works. There is still discussion on how literal we should take Beethoven's "sempre e senza sordini", and that's perfectly okay. As is pedaling a Chopin piece slightly differently than (we assume) he himself probably did.

OT we can agree on, but that's about it.
At issue is not "intention", but rather an understanding, or an apparent lack there of, of the parameters (as given by some 'musical author') by which one might arrive at a reasonably musically-informed interpretation of said author's own works.  "The right of an artist" is just the sort of juvenile, self-entitled approach that reveals either, at best, a gross lack of education or, more likely, a willful ignorance born out of hubris, both of which seem profoundly disrespectful of the true authority which such masters as Chopin, particularly as concerns the performance of their own works, have been so good as to bequeath us...  unless you feel that Chopin (et al) and his instructions as we have them (ie the score) are no real authority at all?  that all those indications provided by the score (slurs, dots, wedges, etc) are really just window dressing which he 'randomly put in there, and your own sensibilities are actually superior?  Or perhaps it's just the notion of authority at all which rankles you?  Further, your comparative example from the world of literature is apples-to-oranges... but in that vein, what if "my interpretation" tells me that Goethe's or Shakespeare's text should be changed—instead of "to be, or not to be (etc)" to something like "yo, izzle or no-shwizzle, that's the jamb"—because it's my "right" as an "artist"... 'that OK with you?  I realize it's the 21st century and, in the spirit of being "woke", anything and everything is fair game in these decadent days, and the more irreverent the better it would largely seem, but (call me old-fashioned) I prefer to study the works of the great composers and see what they can tell me, and not the other way around.  As well, your notion that trying to respect and learn from the composer's instructions beyond mere propaedeutic intervalic & rhythmic content somehow ossifies the work, inhibiting its >Immerwerdenheit< (as Adorno would have it), is simply quatsch.
As for Bach, I'm not at all sure that "pretty much everybody agrees" on appropriate choice of instruments, unless by "everybody" you mean the swath of "musicians" who still, surprisingly (or not?), have their prejudiced heads stuck back in the 20th century, marketing victims of the notion that the 1875 Steinway is the end-all-be-all of keyboard development...

PS by "you" I don't necessarily mean you, Romariozen, per se but rather anyone (including Arthur Rubinstein) who thus mangles Chopin.

Of course this is absolutely OT and in any case a very weak argument. It not only overly emphasises authorial intent, it also proposes a view of art as something static, while sacrificing the right of an artist to interpreting a work to a fictitious ideal of 'accuracy' or 'authenticity', while in reality there just is no such thing. If you take this argument to its logical conclusion, this would also declare anathema any modern interpretation of Goethe or Shakespeare for example, and while I realise there are people who do just that, I do not think they are doing either author any justice. Especially Shakespeare would probably have some very inventive language for them, but maybe that's just my imagination.

We do play Bach on modern pianos with an iron frame, steel strings and equal temperament in favour of a specially tuned clavichord nowadays, and hopefully pretty much everybody agrees that is not 'mangling' his works. There is still discussion on how literal we should take Beethoven's "sempre e senza sordini", and that's perfectly okay. As is pedaling a Chopin piece slightly differently than (we assume) he himself probably did.

I'd like to give an example where you want to use 2 pedals simultaneously.  Watch Chopin's nocturne 48 n1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7mntyrW3HU time code 1:50  4-5 bar. You sostenuto C-C octave whilst sustaning thirds, then you release sustain to shut down thirds and play C-E-G-E on the refreshed space and lasting C-C octave as Chopin intended. There is another way to do it but I like this one.

Without addressing your issue surrounding unwanted "obertones", as a matter of historical fact & interest Chopin never had a sostenuto pedal on any of the instruments he used, and thus obviously never used it in any of his works.  If you're using it in the playing of his music then I'd suggest that there's something seriously amiss with your interpretation/technique, unless you believe that you're somehow a superior pianist to Chopin, in which case there would seem to be other issues at play...

edit:
PS by "you" I don't necessarily mean you, Romariozen, per se but rather anyone (including Arthur Rubinstein) who thus mangles Chopin.
PPS for anyone who's interested, here's an informative thesis on the development of the "modern" (ie 1875 Steinway-stye) pedaling setup: https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file...1428503747, as well as Sandra Rosenblum's critical discussion of Rowland's History...: https://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/v...ontext=ppr

That said, I have identified an artifact I too would classify as a bug...This behaviour is indeed incorrect, as in this specific scenario releasing sostenuto should sound exactly like releasing sustain. But I still maintain this is a bizarre corner case of little practical import. It would be nice if it got fixed by Modartt, but I wouldn't call it exactly urgent either.

I've reproduced this (Pianoteq 6.7 on Linux).  And agree that it's harmless.  Fixing the bug wouldn't enable you to make any sounds that you can't already make.

It seems that the extra resonance lasts for just over a second after the sostenuto pedal is released, whether that's after the sustain pedal is released or a fraction of a second before.  And if the sostenuto pedal goes down first, there's no problem (for me).

Romariozen, does this answer your question, or are you having problems even when the sostenuto pedal goes down first?  If it's still a problem for you, please post those MIDI files!

I'd like to give an example where you want to use 2 pedals simultaneously.  Watch Chopin's nocturne 48 n1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7mntyrW3HU time code 1:50  4-5 bar. You sostenuto C-C octave whilst sustaning thirds, then you release sustain to shut down thirds and play C-E-G-E on the refreshed space and lasting C-C octave as Chopin intended. There is another way to do it but I like this one.

I did not say "two pedals simultaneously never make sense". In fact, if you press a chord, then press sostenuto, thus holding those specific dampers up, then use sustain for lifting/dropping all the other dampers while holding sostenuto all the time to keep the original chord's dampers up, that can absolutely make sense. But pressing the sostenuto pedal while/after the sustain pedal is pressed down does not make much sense, as it just acts as a copy of the sustain pedal, i.e. it will just be holding all the dampers up.

That said, I have identified an artifact I too would classify as a bug, but it depends on using the two pedals in exactly the bizarre fashion I described:
1. Press the sustain pedal
2. Press the sostenuto pedal while still pressing sustain
3. Release the sustain pedal
4. Play a chord; sostenuto acts just like sustain now, which is to be expected
5. Release the chord and the pedal
6. The main string sounds are dampened immediately, but the sympathetic resonance simulation actually seems to linger for about half a second before it too is abruptly cut off

This behaviour is indeed incorrect, as in this specific scenario releasing sostenuto should sound exactly like releasing sustain. But I still maintain this is a bizarre corner case of little practical import. It would be nice if it got fixed by Modartt, but I wouldn't call it exactly urgent either.

Addendum: I have two sets of Kontakt-based sample instruments (Session Keys and Native Instruments), and I played around with them for a bit and neither is getting pedalling completely right. The SK instruments have a completely broken implementation that actually drops the dampers on all the strings when you press sustain while sostenuto-ing specific keys (i.e. play/hold a chord, press/hold sostenuto, release the keys, press sustain (while still holding sostenuto) and immediately hear all notes being dampened, it's quite fascinating). The SK implementation also cuts off repeat notes when pressing sustain after the first key press, which is a very old sustain bug many electronic instruments used to have. Both implementations also ignore the dampers being raised by sustain, i.e.: press/hold sustain, play/hold a chord, press/hold sostenuto, release keys, release sustain and magically only the dampers for the chord stay up, which is not what an actual physical sostenuto pedal would do, as it IMHO simply cannot for mechanical reasons. Maybe this is what he OP expected to happen.

Yes, but in that example you press the sostenuto pedal *first*, and sustain afterwards.  What you were describing earlier seemed like the opposite.  If you press the sustain pedal first, then the sostenuto pedal should do nothing.

Near the top of your screen, you should see a row of links that say Forums ... User list ... Rules ...   The seventh one along is "Shared files".  Click there and you'll go to a page where you can upload.