I've been thinking about the FP10. I too have a P515, but I also like the PHA-4. Do you prefer the feel of the FP10 to that of the P515???

Warmest regards,

Chris

I revisited this and saw that my math was wrong in a few places - some which I should've understood sooner like how loudness should be < 0 if my math was correct.
After corrections to my code, I hand simplified the resulting curve to get this:

Velocity = [0, 5, 7, 10, 14, 18, 24, 32, 127; 0, 5, 10, 21, 33, 41, 47, 56, 127]

It matches well with the Roland FP-30 with pianoteq's dynamic range set at 50.

(My velocity curve is the red line)
The simplified curve does miss the tiny bump in volume at around 75 input velocity but matches the roland's overall shape nicely.

Thanks for sharing your curves and your method of analysis, really interesting. One questions though: I didn't get why you used your Roland piano as a reference when looking for the proper curve? I mean I own the same unit, and it's pretty budget one, so I'm not sure it's that close to the real thing. Shouldn't instead we try to figure out curve that will make it behave as close to real acoustic piano as possible? I see a few people above were stating that they consider default to be more appropriate one, can it be sign that it gets us closer to a proper model?

Awfa wrote:

I revisited this and saw that my math was wrong in a few places - some which I should've understood sooner like how loudness should be < 0 if my math was correct.
After corrections to my code, I hand simplified the resulting curve to get this:

Velocity = [0, 5, 7, 10, 14, 18, 24, 32, 127; 0, 5, 10, 21, 33, 41, 47, 56, 127]

It matches well with the Roland FP-30 with pianoteq's dynamic range set at 50.

...

(My velocity curve is the red line)
The simplified curve does miss the tiny bump in volume at around 75 input velocity but matches the roland's overall shape nicely.

Thank you for sharing this elegant curve design. I own an fp-10 and as far as my experience goes and I read about it elsewhere, PHA-4 barely outputs MIDI velocities above 100. I'm just wondering, in your recording of your sample through your fp-30, how hard did you bang on your keyboard to get that 127 (which your data as well as your curve show that you actually got)?

I sampled the FP-30 by sending the midi values from my computer. This is all that's necessary to get the midi value => loudness mapping for the piano.

Something I forgot to mention is that my Key Touch setting on my FP-30 is set to 'Medium' (which is default I believe). I noticed if it's set to Heavy/SuperHeavy, it is indeed quite difficult to get MIDI values above 100. On Medium however, it seems alright to hit 127.

Since I matched my FP-30 at Medium keytouch, the curve I made is valid for matching what the action sounds like with the Medium keytouch setting, but not other settings.

I revisited this and saw that my math was wrong in a few places - some which I should've understood sooner like how loudness should be < 0 if my math was correct.
After corrections to my code, I hand simplified the resulting curve to get this:

Velocity = [0, 5, 7, 10, 14, 18, 24, 32, 127; 0, 5, 10, 21, 33, 41, 47, 56, 127]

It matches well with the Roland FP-30 with pianoteq's dynamic range set at 50.

...

(My velocity curve is the red line)
The simplified curve does miss the tiny bump in volume at around 75 input velocity but matches the roland's overall shape nicely.

Thank you for sharing this elegant curve design. I own an fp-10 and as far as my experience goes and I read about it elsewhere, PHA-4 barely outputs MIDI velocities above 100. I'm just wondering, in your recording of your sample through your fp-30, how hard did you bang on your keyboard to get that 127 (which your data as well as your curve show that you actually got)?

Velocity = [0, 5, 7, 10, 14, 18, 24, 32, 127; 0, 5, 10, 21, 33, 41, 47, 56, 127]

It matches well with the Roland FP-30 with pianoteq's dynamic range set at 50.

(My velocity curve is the red line)
The simplified curve does miss the tiny bump in volume at around 75 input velocity but matches the roland's overall shape nicely.

@ 48 dB dynamic range:
Velocity = [0, 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 23, 24, 25, 27, 28, 31, 32, 33, 34, 36, 40, 41, 42, 43, 47, 48, 50, 51, 53, 55, 60, 61, 66, 67, 68, 74, 75, 76, 78, 79, 80, 83, 84, 85, 86, 88, 96, 97, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127; 0, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 6, 14, 18, 18, 23, 27, 28, 34, 36, 37, 40, 44, 44, 46, 48, 48, 51, 53, 53, 54, 54, 58, 58, 59, 59, 63, 63, 65, 65, 67, 67, 72, 72, 77, 77, 79, 85, 87, 87, 89, 89, 90, 90, 91, 91, 92, 92, 100, 100, 103, 105, 105, 107, 107, 109, 109, 116, 116, 117, 119, 119, 120, 120, 121, 123, 123, 124, 126, 126, 127]

Comparison of the two responses:

Velocity = [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 39, 40, 43, 47, 48, 51, 52, 54, 55, 58, 59, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 105, 106, 107, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 120, 121, 123, 125, 126, 127; 0, 1, 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 13, 23, 26, 28, 33, 37, 39, 42, 44, 45, 49, 50, 52, 53, 53, 56, 56, 58, 59, 59, 60, 62, 63, 63, 67, 69, 69, 73, 73, 76, 76, 78, 78, 81, 81, 85, 85, 86, 88, 88, 95, 95, 96, 98, 98, 99, 99, 100, 100, 101, 101, 102, 102, 103, 103, 105, 106, 106, 107, 107, 109, 109, 111, 112, 112, 114, 114, 115, 115, 117, 117, 118, 118, 119, 119, 121, 123, 123, 124, 124, 126, 126, 127]

I made a midi file playing C4 from velocities 1-127 with a spacing of every 2 seconds.
Then, I ran it thru pianoteq preset "Bluthner Player/Sound Recording" with the velocity curve at the normal (0,0) (127,127) to get a recording.
My FP-30, I recorded thru the headphone out/max volume, via my Motu M4's line in, to reaper DAW with the gain of +20.8 dB.

I wrote a program to compare the perceived loudness of the two recordings and have it spit out the difference, and velocity curve that would adjust for the difference.
I repeated this for dynamic ranges from 30->70 dB to find the one that matches best, which is how I got the velocity curve above at 68 dB dynamic range.

Here's the chart of perceived loudness:

Redline is pianoteq's loudness with default pianoteq velocity curve (@ 68 dB dyn range), and the green line is after my velocity curve is applied  (@ 68 dB dyn range).

The blue line is the FP-30's perceived loudness so that's the 'target curve'. My curve seems to hit pretty close.

I also use the fp-30 with DP-10 pedal and it plays so much better. I have the Dynamics slider at  50hz
The difference between pianissimo and Fortissimo is huge and so beutifull Impossible to get this range of sound on my 41y U1 , that I also love and play

Personally, I like the keyboard to be more sensitive, so here's my preferred velocity curve vs. the baseline curve.
(1,0) (25,32) (50,64) (75,96) (127,127) - baseline
(1,0) (20,32) (45,64) (72,96) (127,127) - preferred

NOTE-OFF
Baseline + preferred note-off settings. I notice it makes repeated notes easier!
(1,0) (25,32) (75,96) (127,127) - baseline
(1,0) (20,32) (70,96) (127,127) - preferred

PEDAL
For Roland DP-10 Damper Pedal. Just a small adjustment to get better half-damper response.
(0,0) (10,0) (75,64) (117,127) (127,127) - baseline
(0,0) (10,0) (70,64) (117,127) (127,127) - preferred

-- would love to hear how other people find these settings! I'm curious what other people have adjusted to get a better response. as it stands right now, these settings will completely change the feel of your Roland FP-30 / PHA-4 Standard Action. It's like a whole new keyboard.

I'm a total newbie to pianoteq and I've just bought myself an fp-10.
If I understand you correctly, the default straight diagonal velocity curve should work just fine?
How does one go about adjusting the note-off curve, and is it necessary do you reckon? One gripe I have is that with some sounds the key release and damper sounds are a wee bit loud. On the harpsichords it's actually quite disturbing. WOuld the note-off curve be the place to adjust this, or should I just adjust them on the action page? (which I have been doing)
Sorry if these are stupid questions mate.

My FP50 seemed to favour the straight line default PT graph like the fp30 and 10 do.  AND they give you 127 which is more than my Yamaha P515 does.

Interesting, the FP-10 uses the exact same PHA-4 keyboard right? I will give it a try without tweaking.

Indeed it does. It's basically FP-30 with a bit less powrful speakers and more compact casing. Even no. of sounds is the same, though part of them are only accessible via Piano Partner app.

PHA-4 Standard is a bit on a heavy side, so standard PTQ curve is perfect for good dynamics control. One thing you can adjust is note-off velocity, since standard PTQ setting is fixed horizontal line and Roland supports note-off.