For my part I would appreciate some explanation about why they decided to give new customers a permanently better deal than existing customers. A little explanation can go a long way to understanding the thought process. That said, on a practical level, I really only wanted the U4 in addition to my K and D instruments, to cover all my bases. And I bought it recently in the sale and everything still feels like a good deal to me. But the exceptionalism does feel bad to me.

Did you ask them for an explanation ?
I did not, but I'm thinking that I should have.

Early in this discussion I sided somewhat toward a "We bought it, we own it" or
"The deal we got was acceptable to us at the time we took it, newcomers get a better deal, but we took a different deal at a different time."
i.e. the automotive frozen configuration model year.

I have changed toward  "New customers seem to matter more than existing customers and that is unfair."

========================
Now I am pondering where that leaves me and my plans.
The 30% discount on instruments is attractive, but some of the more attractive grands are V6 only and I am still on V5.8
I would LIKE to upgrade to Pro and that upgrade would jump me to V6,.

Buying a few instruments NOW would mean that I would have to put off an upgrade to Pro
If the upgrade to Pro would jump me to 4 bundled instruments, i.e. treat me as well as a ""new" customer I might go for that.
It would still leave a sour taste, ...Hmmmm as I said "pondering".

I think I'll go and practice for a while.

If I were them now, I would feel cautious about capitulating because I would not want to set precedent that people who complain will get a reward. I don't think that is the case here, and think much if not most of the confusion could be diffused with a post about "here is why we did what we did"

In general I would agree that Modartt has been fantastic in a context where it didn't technically have to be. I also think customers and company can and should hold each-other accountable.

As I said, I already bought my 3rd pack. I don't have want or need for another pack or a refunded price. Nor do I feel a need for an apology from them. But I would appreciate some info that sheds light on the circumstance.

Software is a different beast than hardware you can't make the comparison its not relevant. Same with "deals" -- they can give Pro away for $10 and no one would have a valid complaint, but saying "Your Pro doesn't include what their Pro does"... there's a valid complaint.

Any other software out there that offers content depending on what license you own, should be (and almost always is regardless of the industry) consistent to all owners. Most of us pay for every update/upgrade, we're on the latest and greatest "Pro" -- we own the same software license.
And the following example should clarify why what Moddart are proposing is a bad move:

Imagine your DAW, lets say Cubase just as an example (as all DAWS have content upgrades and purchases). Cubase 10 Pro currently has Halion and Grooveagent lite (crippled versions) included.

Tomorrow Steinberg announces Cubase 10 now includes the full complete versions of Halion and Grooveagent, but only for new buyers. All previous purchasers of Cubase 10 Pro, will have to buy the full versions separately. You can continuously pay for upgrades, and you still won't be getting the full versions unless you pay individually for them, or buy a brand new Pro license. Forever. No one would stand for it, and its the most viable "comparison" one could make, and could be made to any software in any industry for the most part.

I'm easy going, as I mentioned I still love Pteq and will continue to upgrade and I believe in the product, and I think a good portion of us are mature enough to see it for what it is and not spoil the whole pot. However there's no doubt this leaves a sour taste in my mouth, and will affect others in a similar way.

There are arguments both ways and ESPECIALLY with software products where the delta cost per unit is so very very low.
Low manufacturing and distribution costs are PART of the attraction of building things in software - customer value (price) can be quite uncoupled from that, so once the development costs are recovered the margin is very good.
==========================================
I still have some hardware sound generators.
They were expensive and (in retrospect) not very good, they break and wear out, they still have manufacturing process defects that have remained latent for over 30 years - cold solder joints still show up.
Roland and Yamaha have been very good at maintaining support on these

Love the scarcity point! but it fails logic (ignoratio elenchi - arguing an irrelevant point) to me in this case though.

There is a scarce 'material' in question here, although virtual, the extant pianos (each a man made item - not an unlimited resource like copy/pasting endless 1s and 0s - not to mention small file size equating to some value proposition, also going against the prospects of unlimited code however nebulous).

Can't help but think of Modartt as being a good actor, who's made this 1 decision (or overlooked that it might be an upset for some customers, given they don't engage in lots of marketing or changes to price) which some users feel bad about - and that's probably the nutshell version without going into there being maybe 2 actual logical lines leading to it which could cause another wall of text ;-0 - will try not to.. must resist.. urge.

Other marketplaces/vendors are always engaging in changing the deal, flash specials, daily deals, weekly sales, fire hose style. 

In those markets, nobody is upset when the deal changes - it's normal (or has been hyper-normalised).

Thinking of too many other vendors these days, their approach is "different price every week" strategy makes me have "no feelings" about them - and the way they run so many sales, all with different add-ons and offerings (built in obsolescence and 'upgrade plans' even), nobody wins all the time (like here mostly we do) - and everybody loses at some point because, what they bought for a bargain for $99.99 one day, may be on sale for $19.99 tomorrow - given as a freebie (all arbitrary stuff, including entire 'normal price' structure importantly).

It's probably more 'the norm' now online. When someone complains "I missed out" the forum says in unison "Meh, you fool, why didn't you just wait for the next Tuesday mega-uber-extreme-fire-hose-in-yer-face special?". In other words, that type of marketing removes the "good stable parent" attachment we might have psychologically, and replaces it with "irresponsible drunken maniac", no decision they make is too outrageous - but we all expect them to be radically different next week, we expect to lose until we pounce at the price point we personally deem to be "good value" - win, and sometimes win big.. but, of course in the casino, the house wins all the time.

At Modartt, because perhaps they have been such good proverbial 'stable nice guy parent-like' figures to customers at all times, to many of us with generous entry point and rational upgrade steps.. well, maybe that's why it smarts users more, when perceived to have done one particular thing like all those other Babylonian wretches on the casino strip

Often, those who are the very most conscientious to do the best of all things for all, are IMO very incorrectly held to some higher standards, than they hold others, who are demonstrably not worthy of such esteem.

Along the casino strip, the software there also gouges endlessly with upgrade path bottle-necks and add-on obsolescence - so that point is also worth re-examining IMO.

But I love the discussion - happy to toss things around - right in my areas of nerdy interests - but still not convinced something like genuine malice was played out - although, of course still love the idea that the users in question might be grandfathered in - but that's just my own spidey senses regarding scarcity calculations (I personally think there are enough instruments, and upcoming ones, to allow the provision of the 2 in question to that fairly small group of users)..

All interesting to toss around - I believe we think alike about many things here, and even if not so, I love reading the heart-felt and considered words of others thinking about things in some detail - makes for better world IMO, so thank you to so many members who post to this forum Always enjoy dropping in to see if there's something of value, or like Diogenes, something interesting at least to add.

ethanay wrote:

There are technical and logistical issues with the automotive industry analogy that do not apply to software. If this were a hardware package I could understand that analogy. My CP33 has the same old piano sounds in it from when I bought it

aandrmusic wrote:

I think it may be analogous to automotive "model years".
e.g. current standard equipment on 2019 models that may have been optional on 2018 models would not become available as a free retrofit on the 2018 model that was bought last year - even though it may still be under warranty.
However much owners might APPRECIATE a free retrofit, unless it is a safety recall it wouldn't be free.

MANY of the interfaces in automobiles remain unchanged for many years, i.e. bolt hole size and spacing between components, sub assemblies and options.

Enthusiasts are able to EASILY update/upgrade earlier model year vehicles with later model year parts and options.
The manufacturers' business models are aimed against it, but it is done.

Not a perfect analogy, I agree.

Point taken, so let's map the analogy onto this case. It would be like a car manufacturer changing purchase policy from, "Your purchase includes the car (pianoteq engine) and two accessories (instrument packs)" to "Your purchase includes the car and three-four accessories (depending on trim, ie pianoteq standard or pro)." Sure, it sweetens the deal for new customers, it does so at the risk of alienating current customers.

The change itself won't sour me on Pianoteq, as I have said in an above post. Good concept, fantastic execution, great support and value regardless. But the arbitrary exclusivity of the decision to appreciate new customers more than existing customers leaves a sour taste in my mouth. It is the opposite of customer appreciation, especially for early adopters who believed in and supported Pianoteq long before it had as convincing a sound as it does now. For me, it's more of a psychological/sociological thing than anything else. It leaves me wondering, "Why are new customers more important than existing, loyal customers, especially the early adopters?"

That weighs internally in me against Qexl's wonderful sentiment (which I also feel) that

There are technical and logistical issues with the automotive industry analogy that do not apply to software. If this were a hardware package I could understand that analogy. My CP33 has the same old piano sounds in it from when I bought it

aandrmusic wrote:

I think it may be analogous to automotive "model years".
e.g. current standard equipment on 2019 models that may have been optional on 2018 models would not become available as a free retrofit on the 2018 model that was bought last year - even though it may still be under warranty.
However much owners might APPRECIATE a free retrofit, unless it is a safety recall it wouldn't be free.

MANY of the interfaces in automobiles remain unchanged for many years, i.e. bolt hole size and spacing between components, sub assemblies and options.

Enthusiasts are able to EASILY update/upgrade earlier model year vehicles with later model year parts and options.
The manufacturers' business models are aimed against it, but it is done.

Not a perfect analogy, I agree.

I think it's something we all eventually put behind us though.

(Like I mention, I'm really happy someone else can get what I got for less).

For the most part, I'm a customer who only bothers with "specials" for products which are not in the same quality class - or needs requirement category.

I want a special on my ground coffee, vehicle - regular things - but I'm happy to pay full price for an extraordinary grand piano.

I'm not angling for the best deals in that case, I'm in all seriousness, angling for the best piano.

I don't begrudge paying for that workmanship in full, as it means the company has the adequate resources to keep making great instruments. And I'd be without a piano for years waiting for the day they put on a special

But - it's also good to have customers who value 'the deal' and discounts - it's just that if you ARE one of those customer types, then surely you must recognise, that in a world where we take advantage of occasional specials, there are times when WE must miss out.

Doesn't make you feel better, I know. (I feel for you) But I do know that I feel better (in life overall) if I lose the feeling of losing, or being attacked by some rando decision. I could pull all my hair out at the supermarket any day, knowing I'm being chiselled like no tomorrow on every other item. One day, a 5% yellow tag - the next 60% off. Bummer, I just bought a dozen at full price 2 days ago.

It's too ruinous to keep track of life that way. As a human, to another human, don't feel slighted, feel happy for the new peeps.

Seriously, I hate bringing up 40yrs buying music gear blah - but in that time - have I been hit in the teeth by ridiculous price gouging and missing sales?

You bet.

Do I still care about that time some large company killed off the special I traveled miles to get just minutes before I entered the building and the sales guys laughed and told me "sux2BU".

I don't hate that company and I still bought what I needed when it was needed. If I need 'that sound' or whatever, I don't wait 4 years for 'the special'

Not saying everyone should be happy happy - but altruism is a good thing IMO.

My bills go up and up, yet Pianoteq is coming down. Shouldn't that be good news? That you might get more for less in future when you are deciding on a new instrument?

The prices could be going UP - and that would be considered normal

I don't think it marks a change in policy to a point where customers don't matter. The reverse, is shows they're offering more for less.

Some of us always by dint of our timeline will be before, or after.

Whenever something like that happens (again worth noting the types who run all sorts of arbitrary specials every other day) - always, some of us will look at what we paid and think "Oh, I missed that one!".

Of course it's rational to have an emotional or annoyed set of feelings around that - but give it a breather - do the English cup of tea - set a spell - at some point later you realise it's been an attempt at better prices, more customers, happier future customers. Yeah? I can't hold ill feelings for that myself.

Now, I hate a lot of other seriously bogus 'deals' I can't ever win on - like phones - I mean, it's hellish, has been for years - something incredibly disingenuous about the entire telecommunication system, from phones to web these days. Nobody gets a "good deal" anymore in that world. I'm so glad Pianoteq is not in that circle of hell.

Cheer up PSongs It may seem goofy - but I'd be happy if they halved prices - I wouldn't feel like I lost.. I would feel like I, and existing customers like me, helped get things to the future!

You are a pioneer - a customer who early, saw value, said "Yes" - don't turn that into a "Steam DLC grfeedy Dev" level thing. It's a good product, company and customer base - and I'm really happy to feel that Modartt are looking to make things more affordable, instead of less

However yes both apply -- not rewarding their long term customers with the additional packs is a crappy move, however they don't "owe" us anything. Think about this though -- what if Moddart said "Pro" now get 4 packs instead of 2? Or 8 Packs instead of 4? Or all the packs including future packs... BUT customers who already own Pro stays with 2 unless they purchase them separately? That's what that is, on a scale more obvious.

Regardless, I would never take away my countless reviews and posts over the years, that most definitely brought significant $$$ to Moddart. More importantly, I also have enjoyed, and still enjoy Pianoteq immensely and believe in it fully - that doesn't change either. In light of what it appears to be though, not offering the additional packs to Pro users most definitely stopped me from purchasing the many packs I had planned to -- mainly because I don't 'need' any of them - I was just gonna support them since they at least offered a discount. Considering I have been holding out for years for a "Pro to Studio" upgrade that offers all the packs at a discount, I can wait longer or do without.

Just something to think about.

I wrote to Modartt and their reply indicated that if/when I upgrade to Pro I get more (1 or 2, not sure as it was a bit ambiguous).
It would be "Nice" if they made it retroactive, but this isn't something I will resent them for if they don't.

I may pick up some more modern pianos when they create them!

True that - even if Studio is out of the picture, there's the next instruments likely worth considering for purchase, a constant, which a few more freebies can't spoil.

On the whole, (in case it's misconstrued) I most like the idea of grandfathering in the offer to those in that boat I see it as good PR, for anyone in PSongs's case.

And looks like PSongs bought fairly recently too so makes the sentiment understandable.

Any software or subscription, always triggers "It's a shame that I just missed out on the new deal by an inch" genuine woe - but someone's always in that customer time-line - no matter if you try offering the best new prices - someone's just recently bought at the old price or locked into a lesser deal - not a Pianteq specific thing, but part of the niggles of life from bills, rents, phone contracts, home prices - you name it. It's up to Modartt though - they have the data and responsible processes to work through if it's something they can do.