I tried running a 5 pin din from Kawai VPC1 to a Zoom uac2 interface (midi in) but found no improvement (or difference), though this is still running into a USB audio interface so not the best test. I do though use the external power supply with the VPC1 but I think powered over USB seems fine also.

Thanks for giving this a go MeDorian! Much appreciated.

EvilDragon wrote:

Actually they aren't, really.

Dissatisfied with that short response, I did some more searching on the interwebz. Of course, I bumped into several of your detailed posts discussing this specific issue in detail over the years. Those are interesting comments.

1. I could envision some USB MIDI optimised, high performance computer with a RME interface that COULD provide superior performance for large chords, low latency, low jitter. But the only way to know would be to try.

2. Ideally, we could match that to some high performance speedy USB midi keyboards that:

(a)- bifurcate key data to 1) speedy "parallel" USB MIDI and 2) slow serial DIN MIDI for max performance

(b)- vs. just run all key data to a slow MIDI controller board then pass it on to a USB controller board

I see plenty of older technology inside keyboards with clunky scanner schemes so would bet option (b) is the preferred method. I see zero data on the internet regarding how USB MIDI data is compiled and sent; this would be painful to measure and compile.

I tried running a 5 pin din from Kawai VPC1 to a Zoom uac2 interface (midi in) but found no improvement (or difference), though this is still running into a USB audio interface so not the best test. I do though use the external power supply with the VPC1 but I think powered over USB seems fine also.

Actually they aren't, really.

Dissatisfied with that short response, I did some more searching on the interwebz. Of course, I bumped into several of your detailed posts discussing this specific issue in detail over the years. Those are interesting comments.

1. I could envision some USB MIDI optimised, high performance computer with a RME interface that COULD provide superior performance for large chords, low latency, low jitter. But the only way to know would be to try.

2. Ideally, we could match that to some high performance speedy USB midi keyboards that:

(a)- bifurcate key data to 1) speedy "parallel" USB MIDI and 2) slow serial DIN MIDI for max performance

(b)- vs. just run all key data to a slow MIDI controller board then pass it on to a USB controller board

I see plenty of older technology inside keyboards with clunky scanner schemes so would bet option (b) is the preferred method. I see zero data on the internet regarding how USB MIDI data is compiled and sent; this would be painful to measure and compile.

Did you ever try running the VPC-1 with DIN MIDI cables?

No, I did not have the opportunity to try.

scherbakov.al wrote:

I use usb directly: vpc --- laptop.

I suppose the serial DIN MIDI cables are much slower, particularly for lots of fast notes.

Actually they aren't, really.

I use usb directly: vpc --- laptop.

Thanks Scherbakov.

Did you ever try running the VPC-1 with DIN MIDI cables? If so, did you feel any difference in latency / performance?

I suppose the serial DIN MIDI cables are much slower, particularly for lots of fast notes. But that second USB computer input could have its own glitches that the RME drivers don't have control over. I've seen very little documentation for potential real-world differences.

scherbakov.al wrote:

Oh yeah! I tested RME babyface pro today with Pianoteq and this is amazing. First of all, I was impressed by the delay, which is simply not there compared to my UR12. Although the latter is good enough for this parameter. Pianoteq tells about 32 bits with this card. I was impressed with the elasticity of sensations that the card opened in VPC1. The sound is born on the piano at the exact time the key moves.
The card creates a good deep, lucid and clean space. There are some details of the sound that were previously veiled. Separate sounds are well read in polyphonic chords. Pianissimo has delightful details.
In general, feelings of concentration, freshness and inspiration are born. Very good product.

From the VPC-1, are you using MIDI out via DIN cable or USB cable?

I use usb directly: vpc --- laptop.

Oh yeah! I tested RME babyface pro today with Pianoteq and this is amazing. First of all, I was impressed by the delay, which is simply not there compared to my UR12. Although the latter is good enough for this parameter. Pianoteq tells about 32 bits with this card. I was impressed with the elasticity of sensations that the card opened in VPC1. The sound is born on the piano at the exact time the key moves.
The card creates a good deep, lucid and clean space. There are some details of the sound that were previously veiled. Separate sounds are well read in polyphonic chords. Pianissimo has delightful details.
In general, feelings of concentration, freshness and inspiration are born. Very good product.

From the VPC-1, are you using MIDI out via DIN cable or USB cable?

Fleer wrote:

EvilDragon wrote:

Yes, but they're entry level and performance is at entry level too. Definitely not RME level.

Maybe better go Apogee Element then.

Not sure how Apogee stands with Windows support these days. They didn't really care much about that for a long period of time.

Good point. For a Mac it's among the best, I believe. And they even added a free rack of FPGA effects, some officially endorsed by Pultec.

EvilDragon wrote:

Yes, but they're entry level and performance is at entry level too. Definitely not RME level.

Maybe better go Apogee Element then.

Not sure how Apogee stands with Windows support these days. They didn't really care much about that for a long period of time.

Also guys, using USB for MIDI input is likely going to suffer from jitter more than usually, because USB is a packet-based protocol rather than a serial bitstream that MIDI is. I mean, even regular DIN MIDI has some jitter, but USB has even more.

But. . .

A lot of people here are using USB to access PianoTeq on a computer, so they are USB packet-based, regardless.
(e.g. playing either directly with a USB MIDI digital piano OR via DIN MIDI cables to a USB interface).

For playing large chords fast, low 31,25 kbit/s DIN MIDI can get bottlenecked, creating timing issues that are different than systematic jitter. In theory, there is no MIDI speed constraint on USB other than what the USB protocol and systems bring.
___

1. In practice, who knows how different digital pianos implement USB MIDI vs DIN MIDI. Some USB MIDI digital pianos may use old boards to process sensor data for DIN MIDI then pass that data to a USB board.

2. Alternatively, DIN MIDI digital piano system is:   digital piano > DIN MIDI cable > Audio Interface > USB cable > computer

** Unfortunately, many systems likely suffer from BOTH slow DIN MIDI bottlenecks & packet-based USB protocol.

https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopi...73#p955773

So I guess, this still makes the mentioned RME card model, the best cost-effective card in the premium hardware segment, for the general windows based PC's? Or did we possibly miss other alternatives I wonder?  :-)

I did some tests of latency and comparison between an RME Babyface Pro and a Focusrite Scarlett on Windows 10 using the RTL utility:

With the Focusrite, I could achieve +/- 8,3 msec of real roundtrip latency at 44,1kHz, but I had to set the buffer at 32 samples to achieve that.

With the Babyface Pro, I have 7,3 msec of real roundtrip latency at 44,1kHz, but with the buffer set to 128 samples (2 levels higher).

So, if your aim is to have the smaller latency, then the RME is the best choice because it gives even better latency than the other popular interfaces but at a higher buffer size, which increase the stability of the system.

I usually use the RME at 44,1/64 samples. The feel and the connection with the sound is perfect, I just don't feel the latency. I can say that even at 44,1/128 samples I don't feel it.
Every attempt to go down is a non sense for me for that reason.

EvilDragon wrote:

Also guys, using USB for MIDI input is likely going to suffer from jitter more than usually, because USB is a packet-based protocol rather than a serial bitstream that MIDI is. I mean, even regular DIN MIDI has some jitter, but USB has even more.

You wrote "likely", but is there something exactly known?

Serial MIDI has 31.25 kbit/s, but even USB 1.1 has 12 Mbit/s and so can transmit data 384 times faster. How big is the latency of a MIDI-event, when a keyboard is directly connected via USB-cable to the PC?

And what is the MIDI-latency, when the keyboard is connected via 5-pole-MIDI-cable and a midi-to-usb adapter to the PC?

Hmmm.....haven't read your links, but I believe I've read somewhere that USB is ultimately limited by a 1 ms data clock sync. or something in that nature?  :-)

Guys, this topic is just as much to educate myself(and others interested) in what is possible to achieve with todays hardware and at what price points! I'm a geek at heart too, not just musically interested(though music is my main driver to be on this forum!  ;-)  ). So I love getting input on this interesting(to me) topic!  ;-)

Regarding Thunderbolt adaptor cards, for Windows PC's not already equipped with the hardware, there seems to be some challenges here. I can easily find TB adaptor cards(like Asus ThunderboltEx3 and others)but they all seems to be specially made for a select few mainboards of their own brands and thus not meant for everybody on a Windows pc platform needing a TB interface....dissapointing!

So I guess that leaves PCIe as the only/best option if ultra-low latency is the goal of a system build and one does not use a Mac. Though haven't given much thought/research on firewire options....but without looking further, I assume firewire is primarily meant to be used with upper-end audio hardware and priced accordingly(have only come across very expensive fw options).

So I guess, this still makes the mentioned RME card model, the best cost-effective card in the premium hardware segment, for the general windows based PC's? Or did we possibly miss other alternatives I wonder?  :-)