Modartt user forum - Help in setting a new temperament

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (David Pinnegar) — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 16:06:05 +0000

Yes I agree and this is the particular importance of Pianoteq as a research tool. However use of midi files can be debated because to some extent part of the effect of temperament is its interaction with the performer. Ed Foote, message 40 on https://my.ptg.org/communities/communit...gestviewer of relevance.

there is something that has not been brought up in the assessment of UT's., and that is their effect on the performer. This may, ultimately, have more to do with what we are hearing than the frequencies, and perhaps have some bearing on the reasons for some people not hearing a difference. I have been told numerous times that after tuning an unequal, circulating temperament, the piano feels like a different piano; a bigger piano. The pianists that are sensitive to what sound is coming out of the piano, (and not all of them are), tell me that there is a clarity to the music that they were unaware of before. This may sound strange to those of us that are particularly sensitive to wider thirds or busier fifths, but it is a fact that this is how most of the tunings I sell are perceived. (I also have a number of customers that don't hear a difference, and several that have had their piano retuned as quickly as I could get back there and do it.) The pianist that is sensitive to the difference quickly finds out that original pedal markings can be far more closely followed without the "muddiness" that traditionally has been blamed on the modern pianos' greater sustain, i.e., the beginning of the Waldstein's third mvt. has, I believe, 17 bars with the pedal to be held down. Try this on a ET and it will quickly turn to a blur. Performed on a Young or Vallotti, it becomes an orchestral landscape, building huge harmony. Which would the musicians of the time have preferred? That is an easy shot, as we are talking about the key of C. However, a Brahms intermezzo in E was what brought one customer to tears,( and astounded me), telling me that he had never heard it sound like that, but had always thought it should. Another well traveled concert pianist has even commented that after coming to an understanding of how a well-tempered piano responds, she is able to partially fake it on ET pianos by giving more expression to the playing of the music, that the modulations now "mean" more than they did. So, we have the evidence that players sensitive to harmonic values change how they phrase when we change the tuning. Pianists that don't listen will, of course, have no image of what this is all about.

Pianoteq has to be the go-to solution for all interested in this important and developing subject.

Tuning harpsichords is potentially quick enough to be able to make comparisons under standard enough conditions but the 2 hours to change temperament of a piano is laborious, if repeatedly, damaging to the tuning plank and thoroughly impractical. But sometimes through recordings I don't hear effects through speakers, however good, that I hear from an instrument in real life, and this flaw potentially hits Pianoteq despite its excellence.

But it's the best tool we have.

Best wishes

David P

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (_DJ_) — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:34:51 +0000

David Pinnegar wrote:

Those 1/4 and 1/6 comma recordings are brilliant.

many thanks. 'really just a quick take in an effort to illustrate meantone in a historic context, but Louis is certainly as much a delight to play as his son le Grand (albeit in a very different stylistic mien).

Here's a Rameau temperament in action
...
as against 1/4 comma meantone
...
as against Kellner
...
but on different instruments perhaps the instrument makes more of a difference.

thanks also for posting these; though, as you suggest, I think that the different instruments and repertoire don't perhaps give as much of an illustrative effect as might be desired from an academic standpoint... which is yet another reason why Pianoteq is so amazing of a tool in that it allows us to take one 'recording' (midi file) and render it on a variety of instruments/temperaments/diapasons so as to, in a hopefully somewhat more rigorously 'scientific' vein, highlight the differences between them by removing the element and vagaries associated with multiple performances (as i've cursorily tried to illustrate above). we had an interesting conversation/thread a couple of years back here on the board that touched on many of these same themes ==> https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=4217 (please note though that some of the first example recordings I had posted are no longer working as they were removed when I pulled their associated fxps from public availability (a whole other story), and I just haven't gotten around to re-posting the recordings on their own; but starting with post #49 of 1st June '16 all should be working properly.)

In any event, 'would be interested to hear more details about your 6 May tuning seminar that you mentioned in your other thread.

cheers,
dj

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (dazric) — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:05:40 +0000

Wow, lots to digest here. There are several Rameau tunings in the Scale Archive - which one is being used in the videos?

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (David Pinnegar) — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 13:36:18 +0000

Those 1/4 and 1/6 comma recordings are brilliant.

Here's a Rameau temperament in action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-fedXQw4pg
https://youtu.be/auB0sJdokm0
https://youtu.be/4624faYhCNY
https://youtu.be/ZbQNkS0NV3g

as against 1/4 comma meantone
https://youtu.be/NjhAL6NU1_8

as against Kellner
https://youtu.be/3XelBcW44B4
https://youtu.be/Pris-DvL4Ak

but on different instruments perhaps the instrument makes more of a difference.

Best wishes

David P

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (_DJ_) — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 09:52:43 +0000

dazric wrote:

Historically informed performance aside, for me one of the great joys of Pianoteq is being able to just goof around and experiment with all those different temperaments. It's something that was completely out of reach for me before. Just imagine the look on your piano tuner's face if you said 'Could you just quickly tune my upright to 1/4 comma mean tone, please, and then I'd like to try Werkmeister III, and then...'

'completely agreed. Back when I was tuning my own real-world fortepiano it was always great fun to explore different temperament schemes but, being an educator/performer and not a professional tuner, I always found the actual process to be rather tedious and time-consuming. 'no more however with Pianoteq! The instant gratification of being able to change diapason (another 'key' [forgive the horrible pun] aspect of course to historically-informed practice) and temperament with the click of a button on a musically responsive instrument is, I believe, nothing short of revolutionary (and perhaps all too addictive for us 'kooky' historical nuts).

David Pinnegar wrote:

Comparisons in 1/4 comma and 1/6 comma would be interesting, as also the Rameau temperament.

et voilà... here's that same L. Couperin Allemande (a¹ = 392 Hz) I'd posted earlier in Artusi I 1/4 comma: https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads....iI_1-4.mp3 and in Artusi II 1/6 comma: https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads....II_1-6.mp3 . It's interesting that, though both were rendered with the exact same settings, the 1/4 comma file is 10kb larger than the 1/6 comma one... 'wonder what's going on here? In any event, I find that all three have their merits and I'll leave it as a matter of personal/individual bon goût as to which is most pleasing (though would be curious to hear people's preferences in the matter). I purposely did not make a render of this Allemande using Rameau's scheme (1726) as it'd be anachronistic to this particular piece (c1660)...

As for Chopin and Beethoven, I'm a great fan of Jousse's quasi-equal scheme (1832) for the former, but with the latter I tend to stay in the Vallotti/Young/Preston realm (depending on instrument being used and style period of the music being played).

Incidentally, I was over at Oxford last night for a lovely performance given by Kristian Bezuidenhout and Amandine Beyer of various Mozart fortepiano-violin works on one of the Wolfs' beautiful Walter copies. At the interval I chatted with the tuner about his setting on the instrument and was interested to learn that he was using his own scheme based on a smoothed out mix of 1/6 and Vallotti [??] (which worked really well for the Salzburg-era pieces though perhaps a little less so for the big B-flat major K.454). The diapason of the instrument was 430... well enough I suppose (it's around what we always used up at Ithaca back in the day), but I found that I was pining for my Pianoteq Walter's very mellow and round a¹ = 421.6 Hz (the actual diapason of Walter's instruments in Vienna at the time of Mozart)... talk about being spoiled!

cheers,
dj

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (David Pinnegar) — Sat, 02 Feb 2019 02:05:14 +0000

In doing some more research on the battle of concepts of the scale, an important article on minimum entropy scales http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=...pt=sci_arttext has a very helpful diagram

One major assumption of the authors of that concept is demonstrated by that particular chord - it's not one we see often in music - the tuning that derives from its logic is a theoretician's rather than a musician's scale.

The result of the stretched octave logic tunes the instrument's scale to its own inharmonicity. The inharmonicity is what takes the instrument into the realms of the metallic. This might be the sound that piano manufacturers want but it's not the sound through which to express meaningful music, or rather music meant to convey meaning.

We can see the logic of stretching the scale so that that E above middle C has both the red and the purple harmonic coinciding. And then actually the major third C-E becomes wider and more harsh. Who's been jibing at wide thirds in Unequal Temperaments? This concept makes them worse, universally so none are sweet.

If instead we start out from the concept of Kirnberger III which has a perfect C-E third, and we don't stretch the middle three octaves at all, and we tune Tenor C downwards harmonically - that's C2 downwards, then for the chord of C major we have perfect C2E2, C3E3, C4E4, beatless. We have C1 tuned so that its 4 harmonic falls on C3 and the 5th harmonic on E3 and 3rd and 6th harmonics very near to their respective G2 and G3. The sound is wonderfully pure and resonant. When we shift up to C# then with a perfect fifth on C#G# the even harmonics add up, and the 3rd coincides too, and the 5th harmonic is so shifted from F3 it's not associated with it at all. This means that we remove it from resonating with the sustaining pedal down. So at once we remove confusion in the sound, allowing Chopin and Beethoven pedalling to be sustaining passages for many bars, and as the pantalon, and we make the sound more coherent in the technical sense, more resonant. And as we slip from one key to another we really do get a different timbre in the built up chords, chromatically, as in a spectrum that we see in the rainbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QaW4rrjkd0
is in Kirnberger III temperament. This genre of temperament has much to give the instrument both musically and in improvement to its tonality, and the modern instrument likewise.

Pianoteq should be able to give a helpful demonstration of the metallic nature of the stretched octave instrument as helpfully described in https://www.jstor.org/stable/842330
C 0
C# 100.3
D 200.6
D# 300.8
E 401.1
F 501.4
F# 601.7
G 702.0
G# 802.2
A 902.5
A# 1002.8
B 1103.1
C 1203.4

Best wishes

David Pinnegar

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (David Pinnegar) — Fri, 01 Feb 2019 16:59:56 +0000

Kellner is the Well Temperament on Pianoteq so you can try it out. In a dozen years of concerts there's nothing it's obstructed and a lot to which it's contributed.

The best tuning software, if you tune yourself, is Tunelab, but don't use stretching, and otherwise a CTS5 Stroboscopic tuner is even better. I find tuning with meter needles unreliable.

Best wishes

David P

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (dazric) — Fri, 01 Feb 2019 15:49:15 +0000

Thanks, David, I'll have a look at Kellner. I do enjoy using the Hummel tunings (hummel and hummel2 in Scale Archive), they are very close to ET but with a bit more 'character'.

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (David Pinnegar) — Fri, 01 Feb 2019 15:32:26 +0000

dazric - were you to tune your acoustic instrument to Kellner there would be no practical reasons interfering with whatever you're doing in my long experience of using this temperament.

Lizbetha - your news is really refreshing, especially about going into the realm of Brahms etc and presumably feeling that you're getting something more musical out of the sound?

I'm organising a seminar on 6th May at East Grinstead in England relating to restoring the emotion to music through tuning. Would you like to be able to write something about your experience for presentation then?

The seminar, by the way, was one of the principle reasons for coming to Pianoteq as software for experiment and demonstration.

When tuning Kellner or Kirnberger III I tune without stretch in the central three octaves, and then tune the bass harmonically to the harmonics which fall in the middle octave or tenor octave as appropriate. In pre 1870s instruments I hear nearly exclusively the 3rd harmonic of the bass strings and none at all of the 5th harmonic whereas in post 1880 instruments I hear much more of the 5th harmonic.

In coming to Pianoteq I'm hearing the harmonic content but I think that the real instruments give a stronger 5th harmonic than I'm hearing in Pianoteq. Is that anyone else's experience?

Best wishes

David P

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (dazric) — Fri, 01 Feb 2019 15:13:36 +0000

That's very interesting information, Lizbetha. For practical reasons I need my upright to be tuned to 440 ET, but at least I can enjoy exploring all the other temperaments with Pianoteq!
Your favourite well-temperament may be included in the 'Scale Archive' collection I mentioned above ( http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/dow...tml#scales ). It's very comprehensive.

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (Lizbetha) — Fri, 01 Feb 2019 14:59:20 +0000

As a piano tuner and rebuilder who has just started to play around with this software and my new to me Roland RD2000, I would like to commend Moddart for including such a delicious range of temperaments and pitches. I routinely tune in historic temperaments for my clients, and have a favorite Well Temperament which is my go-to for historic performance and my own playing. I don't know whether I can publish it here - would need to get permission, I expect.

Many piano tuners now use Electronic Tuning Devices (EDT's), and the more adventurous of us will talk up alternatives to ET and 440 pitch just to vary the playing experience for the client. I remember what a revelation it was when I was in tuning school to learn how to tune Meantone, Marpurg, Werkmeister III, and Valotti-Young (etc.) and then put them on my parent's Steinway Model II and play the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, Rameau, Couperin, Schubert and Brahms. Completely different playing experiences than equal temperament. More expressive and with built-in vibrato speeds!

Maybe your tuner (if s/he has an EDT,) would be more than happy to accommodate your interest in historic temperaments on your upright!

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (dazric) — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 17:16:08 +0000

_DJ_ wrote:

...getting the temperament right is, I believe, such a crucial feature for any sort of historically informed performance...

I agree, it adds so much to the character. Very much enjoyed your performance of the Couperin, by the way.

Historically informed performance aside, for me one of the great joys of Pianoteq is being able to just goof around and experiment with all those different temperaments. It's something that was completely out of reach for me before. Just imagine the look on your piano tuner's face if you said 'Could you just quickly tune my upright to 1/4 comma mean tone, please, and then I'd like to try Werkmeister III, and then...'

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (David Pinnegar) — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:25:34 +0000

It's wonderfully rich. Beats nicely in places, modulates darkly sounding rather cross and then resolves into the light. It makes the music so much more interesting and puts ET universalism into the corner that it belongs.

Comparisons in 1/4 comma and 1/6 comma would be interesting, as also the Rameau temperament.

The temperament used at St Maximin France is worthy of investigation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4oPdHmJjnE

Best wishes

David P

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (_DJ_) — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:10:51 +0000

David Pinnegar wrote:

But in A flat major you're intended to wince in Meantone :-)

hehehe

which is exactly why getting the temperament right is, I believe, such a crucial feature for any sort of historically informed performance...
one can, I suppose, use any temperament for any sort of music one likes, but I think finding one that's appropriate for whatever repertoire is at hand proves to be much more of a satisfying experience all around.

for instance, being in something of a 17th century mood this week (owing to having the bug put in my ear from attending a fab performance on Tuesday given by Christie & Les Arts Florissants), here's a quick little rendering of a Louis Couperin Allemande using 1/5 comma French meantone which I'm happy to share => https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=6315 . I'd never use this sort of temperament for later music like Beethoven or Chopin, but do find that it gives a wonderful dimension to the sort of music written for it (ymmv)...

cheers,
dj

Re: Help in setting a new temperament

null@example.com (dazric) — Tue, 29 Jan 2019 09:34:17 +0000

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

dazric wrote:
Update on selecting key centre for tuning system: those little arrows do shift the tuning around, but they don't work quite as I expected. Maybe somebody with deeper knowledge can explain what's going on there. [...] look below where it says 'Keyboard mapping'. There is a range of notes shown - by default the top one is C3. To change the tuning centre, just click on the + or - button next to that top note.
You almost found the answer: clicking on the little arrow which lays on the right side (respectively left side) produces the same result as clicking on the minus sign (respectively plus side) : the chosen temperament will be based on B instead of C. You can check it by putting the first tuning in the A preset, the second in the B preset, and compare both.

Aha, thanks for the clarification, Philippe. I got confused by the arrows because I was expecting 'right' to be 'sharp' and 'left' to be 'flat' - it is in fact the opposite! Also it's not easy to see which key centre you've arrived at that way. I think I'll stick with the + - buttons.