skip wrote:

hanysz wrote:

[
(Also the XP format contains a lot of polyphonic aftertouch messages.  No idea what that's supposed to achieve.)

This is more evidence that the new CLP700, despite sending poly aftertouch data, probably doesn't allow key-bottom expression, like a synth. They're just using those messages for something else. That's my guess, anyway.

Greg

With my CLP-785, in the Grand Expression Modelling mode set to dynamic, there are a lot of CC88 and Poly Pressure events generated. These events are not present when the Grand Expression Modelling is set to static. In dynamic, the Poly Pressure events all have the same values though, set to 18. I guess you are right Greg, when you write that they're using those messages for something else.

I am now a bit confused with CC19 events. I thought, reading a post by "agoode" that this event type was also related to Grand Expression Modelling, but in a previous song I realize I have CC19 events for all channels, including a bass, a drum channel ...
And now I am trying to play my CLP-785 but I can't seem to generate CC19 anymore ! grrrrr

Yves

not sure that is the case the response from Yamaha is regarding the velocity of the note off  midi messages which are variable (0,127) for midi files playing  and fixed ( =64) when you use the keyboard and transmit midi data out .   I was under the impression that the P525 when used as midi controller transmits note on messages with CC19 acceleration messages and CC88 messages , note off (64) and fixed value of 18 for aftertouch . Yamaha uses their own implementation of midi which is not fully compliant with standard midi . I would assume that their CC88 expanded velocity as they call it is aligned with midi 1.0 2010 addendum specs but not even sure about that . Regarding note off , it is easy to transform the CC19 messages , assuming we know how they measure key acceleration ( you could either generate the derivative value of the speed calculated at middle sensor and speed calculated at upper third sensor , or only consider final speed and measure the acceleration from bottom of the key ( speed =0) . In all cases it would great if the vendors were providing more detailed midi implementation charts while still  protecting their know how .

brundlefly wrote:

bani223 wrote:

Limited access to the keyboard so the experiment is over and involved only the hardware and software mentioned so of course if there were faults any where along those lines it would change things.

Most likely the Yamaha was not transmitting it for whatever reason.

I would also be interested to know.

Can't remember why I googled this again -- I suppose lingering doubts still bothered me. I found a post from Julien79 at https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads...67/21.html that I think confirms the lack of live-human-triggered CC#88 transmission on the p525, if second hand. Apparently, Julien79 eventually received a response from Yamaha Europe tech support and the p525's expand velocity only applies to MIDI files, not to live MIDI playing. This is news for me, and though it still leaves open the question of exactly how expand velocity is "implemented," (maybe through a .MID file loaded into the piano???) I don't really doubt it as a knowledgeable "No" answer to the question, "Can I trigger high-res velocity performing live on a p525?" I did personal testing (details in this thread), read other forum posts and had a few conversations with Yamaha techs and sales.

Reaper's MIDI editor table shows CC88 then note on (on velocity) and note off (to the right) plus a follow up CC88 to presumably make the note off hi-res.

I hadn't considered that CC88 could be used for Note Off velocity as well. I can see now that the 'extra' CC88 messages are aligned with the Note Offs.

bani223 wrote:

Here's a hi-res midi file https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQ_U3w...sp=sharing

I suppose that my full hi-res midi file with many notes and pedal data could benefit from more context focused on describing the hi-res velocity/CC88 standard.

Here are 2 screenshots that show the basics of MIDI Hi-Res velocity in 2 different types of MIDI readouts: PT vs Reaper. PT's readout is more interpretive, so data is combined into hi-res note on/ hi-res note off. Reaper's MIDI editor table shows CC88 then note on (on velocity) and note off (to the right) plus a follow up CC88 to presumably make the note off hi-res. Please forgive me these are from different performances so the two examples are not the same info.

Reaper: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HiyGy2...sp=sharing
Pianoteq: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cl0UbB...drive_link

I'm happy to share all this. I hope it helps in some way, though I'm not sure how it might. Thank you again for the interest in it though

Here's a hi-res midi file https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQ_U3w...sp=sharing

The file is pretty much what I would expect. All events are channel 1 with CC88 events immediately preceeding their respective notes, but there are some superflous CC88 events here and there, not associated with a note event.  Also there are continuous CC64 sustain events with values hovering around 16-18 followed by a distinct pedal down/up sequence holding the final notes and ending with CC64=0; looks like the performer was was holding a very slight partial pedal throughout.

brundlefly wrote:

bani223 wrote:

Limited access to the keyboard ...

Most likely the Yamaha was not transmitting it ...
If someone on the forum can share a hi-res-enabled MIDI file, I'd be interested to see it...

I would also be interested to know.... are you sure your MIDI monitoring app was listening to CC values ? ... Sometime you have to configure the type of MIDI input messages you want to display in the app....
Also, as I understand how CC#88 hi-res velocity works : CC#88 values are sent on MIDI channels 1 to 16 ...

Here's a hi-res midi file https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AQ_U3w...sp=sharing

Although Yamahas "Expand velocity" may work differently, I think you'll find that the Casio/Roland/handful of others Hi-res velocity CC#88 standard works on a single MIDI channel-- multiple channels are not needed to add the additional velocity control information. I believe having the additional information on a separate channels would mean that the MIDI-receiving instrument, e.g. Pianoteq would only receive it, as you suggest, if speaking that specific language. If (1) that is the MIDI dialect/language that the Yamahas speak and if (2) it triggers a higher resolution velocity data point, it seems my test showed that it doesn't pickup in MIDI through the default MIDI receipt set ups, when connected to an IPAD, nor with any of specific dialects I selected in PT. My thought is that the next person with a Yamaha expecting CC#88 transmission and PT 8 might test whether the Expand velocity CC#88 data can be (1) found, perhaps on a separate MIDI channel from the primary MIDI information, (possibly with proprietary Yamaha hardware??) and (2) integrated with the primary velocity, e.g. through some MIDI data re-mapping.

Thanks for continuing this conversation!

Regarding your experiment, are you sure your MIDI monitoring app was listening to CC values ?

Yes, I manually added CC88 messages to be sent 1 tick before their respective notes on the same channel. And I know it was working because I could see the effect of steadily increasing CC88 values  in the output of Pianoteq when the base velocity of the notes was constant and extremely low because the relative effect of CC88 is large in that case. I didn't post a screenshot of that scenario at the time, but I could if you'd like to see it.

bani223 wrote:

Limited access to the keyboard so the experiment is over and involved only the hardware and software mentioned so of course if there were faults any where along those lines it would change things.

Most likely the Yamaha was not transmitting it for whatever reason. CC88 is a controller like any other, and shouldn't be treated differently by any MIDI hardware/software. As mentioned, I couldn't readily find any MIDI files made with a hi-res-capable controller onine so had to create one manually using Cakewalk for my testing purposes.

If someone on the forum can share a hi-res-enabled MIDI file, I'd be interested to see it.

Hi,

I would also be interested to know.
I will soon receive a Yamaha SC3 system capable (supposedly) of transmitting "expand velocity" parameter (on CC#88) as well as "acceleration" (on CC#19). I will let you know if I can monitor this properly.
Regarding your experiment, are you sure your MIDI monitoring app was listening to CC values ? Sometime you have to configure the type of MIDI input messages you want to display in the app.
Also, as I understand how CC#88 hi-res velocity works : CC#88 values are sent on MIDI channels 1 to 16 (1 channel per key stroke or per "finger" if you prefer). So maybe your app was listening to channel 1 only whereas CC#88 values were sent on other channels ?

Limited access to the keyboard so the experiment is over and involved only the hardware and software mentioned so of course if there were faults any where along those lines it would change things.

Most likely the Yamaha was not transmitting it for whatever reason. CC88 is a controller like any other, and shouldn't be treated differently by any MIDI hardware/software. As mentioned, I couldn't readily find any MIDI files made with a hi-res-capable controller onine so had to create one manually using Cakewalk for my testing purposes.

If someone on the forum can share a hi-res-enabled MIDI file, I'd be interested to see it.

bani223 wrote:

I saw regular velocity, pedal, and even aftertouch, but no CC88 data or controls.

Are you looking at an event list or some graphical representation of controllers in the Yamaha app?

Have you tried looking at the file in a DAW or MIDI sequencer/file editor (many are free or available as demos).

1st question: I'm not sure I understand the context, but basically both. 2nd: No. Limited access to the keyboard so the experiment is over and involved only the hardware and software mentioned so of course if there were faults any where along those lines it would change things.

I saw regular velocity, pedal, and even aftertouch, but no CC88 data or controls.

Are you looking at an event list or some graphical representation of controllers in the Yamaha app?

Have you tried looking at the file in a DAW or MIDI sequencer/file editor (many are free or available as demos).

I also did some background research. I asked 3 people who should know plus a very helpful p525 owner, and no one could tell me whether it can send high-res MIDI. I would welcome enlightenment of anyone on this forum.

It's even less likely that fractions of a decibel between key presses on an individual note could make or break a performance, at this level what you can detect and what affects you emotionally I believe are completely different things (even to those who believe it's likely to be important to them) even in the slowest delicate slow passages, in the world's best hands, from the greatest interpreters of a given composers intentions.

I'm pretty much completely in agreement with that. FWIW, though, I'll reiterate that the test I described was done with 6-note chords spread across more than two octaves, centered just below Middle C. They could have been wider, but it was a clip I already had handy from previous velocity/amplitude testing I had done for other purposes, and I didn't really think it about it that much; I just wanted more than single notes to even out any differences in the loudness response of any one. And I measured LUFS because the peak amplitude of a transient can vary greatly depending on how the phases of the various harmonics happen to align.

My own music tends to involve highly rhythmic, often percussive, 'grooves' and riffs that depend on big dynamic differences over time that are not particularly sensitive to very subtle differences in velocity. Where subtlety matters more is in the relative velocity of notes in a chord, which can significantly change the harmonic 'flavor', and the sense of how voices are moving through sequential chords. But I still feel there's plenty of subtlety available with standard velocities - certainly for my purposes and abilities.

I just did a quick test of the RD-700NX's
All that said, the change in loudness with each step was audibly clear to me across the range. I'm quite sure I could reliably tell the difference (and direction) between any two velocities played back to back in a blind test. So there's a point in favor of high-res velocity. ;^)

It would depend on the octave and the frequency response of a given piano in a given octave - I very much doubt this would be even across the keyboard.
This would likely be most audible in the presence region of 4-6khz. Softer piano with a dark treble likely to be less easy across the  bass notes.
This is still nonetheless probably meaningless. Rarely do we listen to single keys alone. It's even less likely that fractions of a decibel between key presses on an individual note could make or break a performance, at this level what you can detect and what affects you emotionally I believe are completely different things (even to those who believe it's likely to be important to them) even in the slowest delicate slow passages, in the world's best hands, from the greatest interpreters of a given composers intentions.
Timing differences and much more gross dynamic differences than this are what makes a difference to a performance.

Piano dynamics are inherently percussive steps anyway. How important being just about able to tell extremely subtle sound pressure level changes at a per key level on one key is to a musical performance well I really don't believe it's anything whatsoever to do with any lack of realism in what we're hearing - that's still to come in even better modeling.

I still want this to be a non issue. Every controller being on HD midi across the board for every control.