skip wrote:

I think I missed this post. Anyway, IMHO, that sound is mostly due to the close mic'ing and the mic positioning - not the piano itself.  I like it a lot too, but it sounds a bit too percussive - maybe a bit of compression would help.
If Pianoteq did model this Baldwin, I don't think that would automatically mean that it would be able to achieve this very high degree of clarity/transparency. If it were capable of that, we'd already have very similar sounds from all the existing models, IMHO.

Greg

I was rereadiing this thread, and your post led me down a path that I may regret revealing, but: What would happen if Modarrt modelled a piano that was already in this condition? In other words, an older, out of tune piano that probably needs new strings and hammers, as the default? Based on close mics, such as those used in the video\Piano Jazz recording?

For a spectrum of pianos in various conditions and environments, you may be interested in the Pianobook project started by Christian Henson of Spitfire Audio. At his invitation, a community of enthusiasts has been making and sharing (free) playable sample libraries from pianos (and other sound sources) found in concert halls, family homes, train stations, music schools and other locations, along with information about where and how they were sampled. They range in condition from excellent and in-tune to comically unique. Although the depth of sampling is usually limited, Henson tweaks them to become quite playable and fun. The website for browsing, listening and downloading is quite good.  https://www.pianobook.co.uk

I think I missed this post. Anyway, IMHO, that sound is mostly due to the close mic'ing and the mic positioning - not the piano itself.  I like it a lot too, but it sounds a bit too percussive - maybe a bit of compression would help.
If Pianoteq did model this Baldwin, I don't think that would automatically mean that it would be able to achieve this very high degree of clarity/transparency. If it were capable of that, we'd already have very similar sounds from all the existing models, IMHO.

Greg

I was rereadiing this thread, and your post led me down a path that I may regret revealing, but: What would happen if Modarrt modelled a piano that was already in this condition? In other words, an older, out of tune piano that probably needs new strings and hammers, as the default? Based on close mics, such as those used in the video\Piano Jazz recording?

Lanny

But, obviously, we want an authorized physical model for Pianoteq 7!

We can always hope; however, Baldwin is now owned by Gibson Guitar Company.  The "marque" is still used on a small selection of uprights (and grands too supposedly but they only go up to 211cm) made in China.  I don't know how much they really resemble the original quality or not; they claim they're exactly the same designs but I'm don't know that they'll feel like their older cousins.  (My experience with Made in China pianos has been poor, but I don't know how much of that is the regulation on the sales floor to encourage interest in hand-made European pianos for four times the price--much like televisions come with overly blue color temperature to feel brighter in the showroom--less action voicing is poured into the less expensive pianos, or if they're as genuinely worse as I've found them to be when I've tried them.) Gibson closed the only factory that made their Baldwin grands in 2008 in Arkansas.  A skeleton crew remained to continue filling artist orders and custom piano commissions, but it was permanently closed and liquidated in 2018.

While I don't know how exactly Pianoteq's brand licensing works, I doubt that Gibson has any interest in giving license to something that almost doesn't exist anymore.  Steinway and other brands are more interested in digital technology as a gateway to acoustic sales: if a student is using Pianoteq's Steinway D in school, they're more likely to buy an A, B or D later because they're comfortable with the sound and brand because of the third-party digital product.  So it's a win-win for both.  (Pianoteq--having made the technical achievement that Steinway is celebrating and promoting, which increases sales--and Steinway gets future customers without having to make a new product or advertising campaign.)  Gibson doesn't have that advantage because the shared use of the marque would be more likely to promote used sales instead new sales.  This is similar to why I suspect Yamaha hasn't made any public license for their brands through Pianoteq: Yamaha has directly competing products/technologies which is why authorized Boesendorfer of CFX is less likely instead of more likely, which is really sad in my opinion but my opinion doesn't change that. (But believe me, I'm hoping for Yamaha products in the Pianoteq lineup!!!!)  Smaller factories that haven't entered the digital market, like Mason & Hamelin, may be much more interested in the exposure offered by a Pianoteq license agreement, but with the COVID financial crisis in flux globally, we could see a lot more or a lot less appetite among piano companies with hurt margins to forge new licensing agreements or simply just vanish from the market entirely.

To do something close to an authorized model or instrument pack, Pianoteq would need to buy/rent an SD-10 or SF-10 (which is quite a unicorn in Europe) or hire someone in the US (preferably with technician's skills to regulate the piano during the process so additional contracts or hires wouldn't be needed) to take lots and lots of samples and measurements to send back to engineers in France.  There is the option for the BP211 which is made new, but I don't even know where you'd get one anywhere in the world.  Then, while still having access to the piano, build a new addon instrument pack at the code level and keep refining it until the two are indistinguishable.  You wouldn't be able to authorize the use of the marque, but you'd have as good a result as an authorized version and call it "American Grand" or "Midwestern Grand" (in case it upset the Steinway agreement to call another piano brand "American").  The question that Modarrt privately needs to answer among the product owners and developers (and may already have been decided long ago) is whether or not the extensive financial outlay required will result in sufficient market interest and sales to cover the additional logistical cost of adding another American brand unofficially to the lineup of instruments.  There could even be undisclosed non-competition aspects to their prior agreement with Steinway that would prevent them from including other American marques--past or present--in their products at all or at least not without Steinway's permission.  While that idea is purely speculation, it wouldn't be unlike the terms of other licensing agreements Steinway has made about the use of its brand in the past.  Steinway has a strong history in adroit marketing, not just in making pianos.

I'm upgrading from Stage to Standard so now I can try out some of your FXPs. Any chance you could download the Mason Hamlin, Yamaha CFX, and Shigeru Kawai? I've already downloaded the CFIII, Faziolis, and Chris Maene. Thanks.

I don't know if it's still in time for your needs, but here's the Mason & Hamelin CC2.  The CFX and Shigeru and Mason & Hamelin CC94 will take a little more time.  Sorry for the delay, work is unusually busy at the moment.

https://forum.modartt.com/file/cklnmzy

The Bechstein 1896 has a longer sustain than other pianos of the same generation, it sounds warm and deep. Thus, C. Bechstein would be a good principle for creating a preset close to that Baldwin of the video.

But, obviously, we want an authorized physical model for Pianoteq 7!

Qexl wrote:

I haven't yet tried forum user tmyoung's Baldwyn FXP (saw dazric mentioned it in aother thread) - but I'm hoping to have some time for it tonight/tomorrow.

*gulp*

I hope they sound better than I sometimes feel like they do...

The ones from the other day were done in Standard a couple years ago, but with the renewed interest/mention of Baldwins, I thought I'd pass those along to the community.  I hasten to point out that I haven't been able to spend as much time as I'd really like to nail down the exact sound of the Baldwins that I've encountered.  Much of my time in High School in the US was spent with either an SF-10 or SD-10 (I was never totally sure which it was), and that was the nicest piano I had regular access to until University.  So I am very sentimental (and easily frustrated) with Baldwins.

The new ones I posted today are brand new presets that I did in Pro this evening, so I had more control and are based on yet another set of Baldwins I came across for sale in recent months.

If people are interested, I can positively inundate the community with the presets I've put together over the years: most were done in Standard so I'll probably tweak them before upload now that I've had Pro for over a year, but I've got Stuart and Sons, Pramberger, Weber, Kohler based on the D.  I've got Knabe, Estonia, and Rönisch based on the Petrof.  I've got Schimmel and Mason & Hamelin based on the Steingraeber.  I've got Gaveau, Chickering, Kranich & Bach based on the Grotrian.  I've got Kimball, Weber, Borgato, and Bösendorfer based on the Bluethner.  I've also got Kawai, Shigeru Kawai, Young Chang, and Yamaha CFX based off of the K2.  If there's interest, I can send out a couple of these a week: true confessions, I don't feel like they're as different and distinct as I would ideally like them to be (I always feel like PTQ at the software level has more subtle control inside the engine than Pro offers), but--if nothing else--they're very different flavors of the much more carefully executed Modartt designs...   I don't begin to believe that these are equivalent in quality to the official instrument packs (and yes, I'd love one of each of these as pack), but perhaps these can amuse us until more official packages show up for sale.

Maybe I'll do a Ravenscroft 275 as my next project--probably another K2 derivative.

I'm upgrading from Stage to Standard so now I can try out some of your FXPs. Any chance you could download the Mason Hamlin, Yamaha CFX, and Shigeru Kawai? I've already downloaded the CFIII, Faziolis, and Chris Maene. Thanks.

I imagine several of our forum-mates would find little use for this piano, with its rattles and metal. But for people who listen to both Renee Fleming and Patty Griffin, this piano is perfect for her voice, or her voice is perfect for this piano. About her voice: She comes from the stage tradition and used to sing in small venues. An organic, human voice, perhaps, that appeals in part because we can sense the person behind it in the small inflections and dips and rises in volume and perhaps pitch? And she started by singing in character, as an actress. My impression is that there is still a bit of that going on, even though there is a lot of her in the persona that she presents. In any case, I think of her as being from a completely different, less pure school from say, Ella Fitzgerald or Sarah Vaughan.McKay may be working in more of a vaudeville tradition, with a little more room for quirks. Or maybe jazz should, by definition, be a large tent that includes many voices and approaches. For me, at least, the fragility of her voice, and the way it doesn't at times seem "professional" make her version of this old standard live. (There's a video of her singing "If I Had You" that gives one a sense of her approach. I'll post it in another thread, but she plays a ukulele, so I'll have to find some justification for it. A request for a modelled ukulele?)

wow, awesome post. I really enjoyed reading it.
and I also super enjoyed the video after reading this post.
I agree with what you said.
and compliment your articulateness.

Love your Baldwin SF-10 1975 fxp!

Thank you very much!

Okay

...

Since I forgot that you can link FXPs directly, I've put them below in case it saves people have to search a lot in the future.
https://forum.modartt.com/file/mfgjkkc
https://forum.modartt.com/file/dxvywwma
https://forum.modartt.com/file/8ue3fsyl

Old PTQ 5 presets ported to 6.6
https://forum.modartt.com/file/arg67z9r
https://forum.modartt.com/file/arg67zei

Qexl wrote:

I haven't yet tried forum user tmyoung's Baldwyn FXP (saw dazric mentioned it in aother thread) - but I'm hoping to have some time for it tonight/tomorrow.

The new ones I posted today are brand new presets that I did in Pro this evening, so I had more control and are based on yet another set of Baldwins I came across for sale in recent months..

Love your Baldwin SF-10 1975 fxp!

Yes please!!! Inundate us!!! :-)

Fos one side I like the Baldwin drop sound efect, like if some notes had a touch sound of drops of water falling on ground (something in the note deay???). In some of the trebble, just some, it feels good, give some different metalic sometimes more organic. But in other notes (maybe due out tune) it sometimes sounds a bite like a metal from a can, soup can.
Or maybe it's just a Baldwing from the not so good days of the company, when quality dropped, and some notes just are quite worse than others.

And some singing lessons could help her too...