What gives you the impression that my recording is drier is only due to the placement of microphones, equalization and normalization. You can easily record in a church with a reverb time of 5 seconds and give the impression that you have recorded it in your living room, just with the microphones placement.
My goal so far has not been to get closer to the Beghin version, but I can do it.

https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=5842

'nothing special or fancy, but i find its almost minimalist quality lets me for one, while tweaking fxps, focus on the sound artifact and not what's being played...
ymmv

cheers,
dj

these initial test recordings of yours have a very nice sound indeed, though your version of Holywell as presented sounds considerably drier to my ears than in Beghin's recording... i wonder though if that's more an effect of mic choice/placement than anything else...?  could you detail please a little of what your rec setup for this was as well as how you arrived at the "precise acoustics reconstruction" of your custom/private IR for Holywell?

also, while I appreciate that these recordings are "just to listen to the sound of the instrument in these two rooms", i personally find the "unmeasured sightreading" more distracting than helpful and I wonder if these are really the best recordings to be demo-ing your efforts with here...? 

cheers,
dj

Mickael,
I owe you a huge apology which I'm happy to make here publicly!
Concerning reverb & "simulating case resonance", you are completely right and I'm dead wrong.  It turns out that the fxps I've been using were all built on 5.0 and I never properly updated them... and whatever "deficiency" I was trying to "correct" under the old model is no longer an issue at all under 6.0.  I don't know how much psychoacoustics is playing into this with the new model etc, but the sound is gorgeous and clean and indeed much closer to "reality".  Thanks so much for your insights here as much as for your grace...  I'm enjoying my very healthy dose of humble pie (as well as these beautiful "new" instruments)!
shamefaced, but wishing you cheers,
dj

Hi _DJ_

I am very pleased that my advice about the simulation of the ‘‘case resonance’’ was helpful!

I also believe that there are several ways to correct Pianoteq's minimal 'deficiency' to achieve perfection, but my reasoning is to always reproduce a realistic configuration.

Here are two recording tests we made yesterday with the Broadwood in a simulation of the Holywell Music Room and the Hanover Square Rooms. These are two great concert halls in which Haydn played during his stay in London.

https://soundcloud.com/modelling-audio-...ht-reading

https://soundcloud.com/modelling-audio-...ht-reading

Here, a brief presentation of the recordings with the high quality audio files download link: http://modelling-audio-prod.com/haydn-p...ortepiano/

These are first non-mastered tests, just to listen to the sound of the instrument in these two rooms ...

Cheers

Mickael

in general this is a problem with IR's from concert halls etc, because they are designed to have good acoustics with public

i was under the impression that most modern halls (and refurbished old halls) used material padding in the seats of proper type & sufficiency to mimic the "damping" effect of clothed human bodies...?

and, though i shudder to imagine it with the usual sort of concert-going audience, i wonder (completely idle & meaningless speculative fun here) how different the sound reflections would be from unclothed bodies...?  maybe this would make a "fun" project for some quirky grad student...  and surely a whole new twist to that old musicale the roar of the greasepaint—the smell of the crowd!

https://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads....adagio.mp3

Cramer - Sonata in G, Op. 8 n.2 (1795) - Adagio con espressione
1796 Broadwood, a¹=422.7 Preston (1785)
Large Chamber IR

(as with the Dussek ditty i posted above, this was only a quick take to demo aspects of the instrument/rec setup and not meant to be any sort of an avowed musical statement)

oh, and this one is tre corde throughout and without editing or mastering.

for a mastered version of the same see here.

This represents the noise of analog devices, the hall ventilation system, the very low noise from the street, the parquet floor that cracks, etc.

Silence doesn’t exist!!! ... it's realism.

Modartt are surely working on Audienceteq right now...?
Choose from a variety of presets (Jazz, Rock, Pop, Classical etc.), vary the age and condition of the audience, levels of coughing, shuffling, chair creaking, whispering...

So crazy! but it would be a very great idea!

Modelling Audio Prod wrote:

Marc Verhoeven wrote:

Or, when using modeling software, by placing virtual people inside the hall ;-)

It's a possibility, but if you do that your recording will look like a live recording ...

Could'nt you place virtual people who don't cough nor eat popcorn ?

Very funny!!!

I recognize that this deserves some explanation from me:

When you record in a virtual concert hall, with a virtual audience, the ''problem'' is precisely that you don’t hear people coughing and ‘‘eating popcorn’’, because it’s like playing in an empty hall with an ''inappropriate'' short reverberation time in relation to the size of the hall.

It’s not easy to explain, but I’ve already done several tests with a "fake" public to say that.
I just want to say that it's a little weird to listen to, and a bit unrealistic, because even when a real audience is silent, there's always some kind of background noise that adds some ambience to the natural reverb of the hall.

Moreover, if anyone knows a software that can simulate the public noise (without popcorn), I am very interested!

Another thing is that, usually, during a live recording, microphones are placed and mixed to get as little noise as possible from the audience. So, less concert hall ‘‘sound’’, and more piano direct sound.

Of course, you don’t have this problem to deal with a silent virtual audience (like a statue), but it sounds a little weird (to my ears).

So, I think it's better to find a more suitable concert hall to stay realistic.

Marc Verhoeven wrote:

Or, when using modeling software, by placing virtual people inside the hall ;-)

It's a possibility, but if you do that your recording will look like a live recording ...

Could'nt you place virtual people who don't cough nor eat popcorn ?

Or, when using modeling software, by placing virtual people inside the hall ;-)

It's a possibility, but if you do that your recording will look like a live recording ...

The best is to find an ideal hall.

Modelling Audio Prod wrote:

By saying this, I took into account that _DJ_ didn’t want the piano to be too wet, because the particular acoustics of the Mozart room is not easy to manage when there is no audience.
However, it’s an excellent chamber music hall for concerts with the public.

Yes, in general this is a problem with IR's from concert halls etc, because they are designed to have good acoustics with public; IR's are made without public, so usually give over-acoustic results. Might be better to explore IR's of spaces that are designed to sound good without public, so recording studio's, scoring stages etc.
Or, when using modeling software, by placing virtual people inside the hall ;-)

Yes, exactly!

The acoustics of a concert hall are mainly designed to be optimal when there is an audience, but some of them are very suitable for non-public recordings (La Chaux-de-Fonds, Henry Wood Hall, Hannover Beethovensaal, etc.).

Also, many albums of Haydn’s sonatas have been recorded in studios in recent years. Especially at Teldex Studio in Berlin (the Harmonia Mundi base camp)

Teldex Studio and La Chaux-de-Fonds concert hall are available with Altiverb ...

Yes, in general this is a problem with IR's from concert halls etc, because they are designed to have good acoustics with public; IR's are made without public, so usually give over-acoustic results. Might be better to explore IR's of spaces that are designed to sound good without public, so recording studio's, scoring stages etc.
Or, when using modeling software, by placing virtual people inside the hall ;-)

Very thought-provoking discussion! I know little about the technical details of acoustics, but yes, there is a heck of a lot of difference between the sound properties of an empty hall and a populated one.