the files posted do not have the extra work mentioned in my previous post. They were exported from the DAW (which had a personal starting-point fundamental sound stage setup incl. some compression).

The main thing they illustrate is how at softer levels, Pianoteq can benefit from less reverb wash - and at higher levels when the gated distant mic kicks in it can raise the sense of headroom etc. - using a gated distant mic as the core.

If that can be baked in to Pianoteq's mic/reverb for us all, then we won't need to create the effect in a DAW - and people demoing the software might like a new default preset featuring this and some studios might see it as a time saver!

The 3 items listed in the previous post are ONLY relating to further working on the sound - which I thought others on the journey might get some extra mileage from tinkering with - but the essence of the thread really remains that hopefully the Pianoteq engine can be improved with any given amount of insight from the gated mic concept

About those 3 extra things - 2 are still making my ears happy - the 3rd not so much.

Re 1. shined up the sound

Still keeping this as a DAW starting point for further sessions but it's only a starting point - every new session will use new instruments tailored for the piece etc. Everyone will have a different idea about a good starting point in their DAW. I think I'll start another thread on this topic asap.

Re 2. left to right flow of gated dist. mic signal

Keeper. I've saved this in my mic settings in Pianoteq - will need tweaking with any different piano model and/or piece's requirements - but good starting point. I've experimented with many things - but it works a charm with the gated mic signal.

Re 3. different tuning for both instances.

Hindsight = Probably for modern music only.

Fresh ears are telling me 3. is a definitive "no" for purely classical tastes, producing artificiality which is noticed too much in hindsight - but useful still for modern or backing sound production, a workable organic random/chaotic type of chorus for a modern piano sound perhaps. In modern music, this might be effective because many effects are on set times or wave patterns - but this produces rhythmic swell etc more in key-time with the playing.

I'd hesitate to add noise by uploading a demo displaying #3 - it's such a long piece of string but basically at even modest settings it goes too far outside 'reality' - perhaps is something for another thread? Perhaps more experimentation - could still be a valid idea but looking for new parameters (like condition slider instead or different tunings). I haven't yet found something I'd want to upload. I can see it as possible to find something which works well with one of the antique instruments, given time - I'll probably spend some time on it but it's going to be a secondary challenge I think.

Trying all different scala files together would take 1000 years and why stop at 2 Pianoteq instances? Get a really thick chorus effect by using 6 or 8 instances each tuned differently or just make each instance a little more aged with the condition slider, so you get a very thick voice with the same but aging piano - mix some left, some right and mix the most out of tune as most distant. All valid production ideas

I encourage us all to never stop trying new things - I had no idea just how much I would be able to improve my enjoyment of Pianoteq and the quality of recordings with something so simple as a noise gate

In the interests of posting interesting observations about my interest in the very interesting world of wrangling interesting reverb..

Here's a smidgen of a next step in the design illustrated by the MP3s above.

1.
I've shined up the sound stage a little more (more subtle reverb all 'round but still stands tall within sane limits - some DAW tools incl. multiple rack effects like Compression, EQ and a couple of multibands) but also ...

2.
to include some 'left to right' flow for the distant mic by altering the left/right volumes and the delay between those (inside Pianoteq's existing tools) - the result is more of a sense of the piano's lid throwing that louder sound off to the back of the auditorium to the right which has the slight delay.

The sort-of mashing together of player perspective and in-audience perspective means taking some liberties with reality but man it's truly crazy how much that reality can be made extremely flexible in Pianoteq these days. It approaches my ideal for a modern studio style piano recording variant.

3.
Lastly for this model, an interesting result comes also from tuning the 2 different instances of Pianoteq on those 2 tracks differently - can often sound awfully wrong with just any tuning but I've found this to work beautifully..

The 4 mics instance of Pianoteq is tuned with a Bernard Stopper tuning and the instance with the distant mic is tuned with Bourdelle1 (Scala files) - in a way it gives credit to the way sound travels over distance with waves coming and going, crashing Doppler effects all over the hall (think like a subtle but complex chorus effect) - the reverb "swims" just that little bit more, esp. when 'travelling' to the right-back of the space and thus can be turned down that tiny bit more also - helping to shine up the sound further. There's a nice sense of cut-through from the higher register among the lower because of all these factors I believe. Just loving it. Still taking some time deciding if it's as goooood an idea with a few more days of A B testing with fresh ears. It might turn out this trick is just nonsense and will end up hurting my brain in years to come listening back to that 'wrong tuning' period But seems strangely right just now. At least worth some further experimentation maybe leading to improvements and/or something else I haven't yet uncovered inside Pianoteq.

Feels a little too much like cheating keeping some of this to myself in this instance, so love to share here in hopes it's inspirational to others as much as a possibility to bake the secret sauce into Pianoteq.

Never suggesting it's totally revolutionary, nor something that's not already done outside the engine but man, I do think that it could turn some heads when people are trialing the demo, let alone mean less being stuck in DAWs on those rainy days.

Hope that makes for some more thought provoking musing for anyone interested in trying some esoteric techniques to spice up or trim their reverb with this kind of thing.

Simplicity in supplying this general effect in this way could be rather profound I feel.

I'm imagining some kind of a Logarithmic basis for control?

Min = OFF no effect
Slide towards Med = maybe most 'sane' (similar or softer than examples above)
Max = reverb baloons to satisfy modern production tastes (cue Mr. Visconti!)

I know I'd use it

Many thanks - hope it's something not only doable but of some benefit to a wide user base in the end.

Music in this case paints a thousand words

Thank you sincerely again for your time and attention Philippe and Luc.

These illustrate the clarity or optional production value attainable - 4 close mics alone, the distant mic alone, the mix of those 2 tracks in DAW, then the gated mic alone to show how it sounds outside the mix, then the final mix in DAW of the 4 close mics plus just the one distant gated mic for comparison.

1:

4 close mics (NO gates)

2:

1 distant mic, solo (NO gate)

3:

The mix (NO gate)

4:

1 distant mic, solo (With gate)

5:

The mix (file 1 and file 4 With the gate)

In effect, this example shows how the gate gently "sculps" the reverb out of way in a sense until the bigger moments. This can help un-clouding mid levels which can be a little overridden with unnecessary reverb and so on.

It could be made more or less subtle to taste of course but it can really lift the end result, esp with a buttery smooth gate attack and release

Last thing I can think to re-iterate in support of this idea: this could be achieved and saved with my mic settings in Pianoteq with the requested addition of mic gate(s) however at this time, it is something to be wrangled with some greater complexity when having to split/rework tracks in DAW and run multiple instances of Pianoteq etc. I'd like to be able to play the one instance of Pianoteq and not have that extra overhead/time spent but fully understand if it's something too out of the ordinary or too heavy a burden on the engine.

I hope it's achievable but of course, I'm shooting for the moon with a rather esoteric request I do understand

Cheers!

It would be brilliant to have it in a few clicks in Pianoteq, rather than requiring a, by comparison, complex set-up in a DAW - it would be a fascinating compliment to the microphones and tools already inside/on-board Pianoteq.

I understand your request, but I was only mentioning that possibility (mic automation within a DAW) for experimenting purpose and show in which way it can be useful. A comparison example with piano alone, with and without gates, would be interesting.

For possibly most notable and illustrative example of this kind of (mis?)usage of microphones, this YouTube snip of Toni Visconti video describing his usage of 3 mics (1 close, 1 mid distance gated, 1 distant gated). Obviously, the effect he's engineering here would be different for different goals and instruments but illustrative it is:

Toni Visconti - gated mic technique on Bowie's Heroes - Video

Article on Visconti mic technique on Bowie's Heroes quoted from Reverb.com

It has been "legendary" in modern studios more or less since the '70s - but this very thing is wonderful for what might be considered experimental at most, or nuanced at least and it can really broaden out the available headroom (un-cloud) the mid-range which can become messy - until you want the extra "boom" or "blossom" from distant reverb - as if the room reaches a tipping point.

I see it as a fundamental design tool - it's like an extra colour on a painter's pallet. It would appeal more to those using Pianoteq in a modern styles perhaps but not to say it's only/just for that.

Equally applicable to modern or classical recordings IMO.

Article on Visconti mic technique on Bowie's Heroes quoted from EnmoreAudio.com

This would not likely be overused by anyone recording a pristine classical repertoire, except in the most subtle way perhaps.

Regardless of how hard to hit any given nail with this hammer here's the line, from the above quote, of most import IMO:

"Remarkably, Bowie and Visconti pulled it off with just one open track on a 24-track machine, part of the motivation for the multi-mic strategy"

In their case, the mother of this invention was saving tracks in an analog recording environment.

In my case and hopefully others' usage case, it would be to save the same

I hope it's better understood and I hope it can be seen that, simple controls in the Pianoteq interface would delete the time spent creating a new DAW environment, setting up extra tracks/gates in that environment, esp. when just sitting down to play Pianoteq - and loading my own mic settings.

Having the ability to save all our microphone settings is magic - and I'd love to include any gates at the source

Thank you sincerely for bearing with me

[edited for grammar]

Firstly to make this aspect more clear, it's definitely not about reducing noise per se - my suggestion is not about a noise issue - no noise issues exist in Pianoteq to be sure, in case others might have that impression.

Also, the mics in question are the virtual ones in the Pianoteq mic interface BTW - in case that's also a point of confusion, again apologies if that's the case.

Instead this is a sound design idea / production technique which, if achievable within Pianoteq would save time and simplify recording with this mic technique - as well as adding a bow to Pianoteq's existing mic tools.

An example based on something I'm attempting to achieve in DAW:

For a 5 mic model I'm really enjoying working on, there's an array of 4 close mics and 1 distant mic.

The existing tools and convolution reverb is brilliant. No complaint or noise here. In this mic model, because the close mics don't pick up too much of the room over the pure signal from the piano model a suitable balance and intimate sound at low velo is the desired baseline.

Next consideration, the distant mic as expected is much more reverb rich, picking up more of the virtual room of course (which is a wonderful thing in itself). Enabled, it however is a little more prominent at low-mid velocities than I'd like.

This is where the gate setting would be most opportune for that mic in this situation at the source, in Pianoteq's interface.

Instead of a gate for the mic in Pianoteq, the final step means creating a DAW project, split the mics across tracks (let's say 4 close mics on track 1, the distant mic on track 2) and then add a desired gate on track 2 used for the output of the distant mic.

Doable - gating input is not a unique production technique but can introduce complexity when splitting Pianoteq across tracks (phasing etc. and the model outputting slight difference across instances etc.) - maybe not a big problem for basic recording but I'd like to cut out these variables to produce the result.

It would be so much more "sit down and play" however, if gating a mic in Pianoteq was a matter of dragging a slider to say how sensitive (no sound produced by mic until a certain level) and how fast (immediately kicks in at a certain level or gradually fades in as velo/sound levels increase) then sliding another control from bass or treble bias or leaving it 'as is'.

Going through this for each session with this requirement in a DAW is OK but cumbersome also because if I'm designing a mic model in Pianoteq, I don't wish for that to be so dependent upon any particular DAW or it's inputs/outputs - esp. if traveling and using another maybe Linux laptop without my main kit which might have some starting point environments saved for ease of use.

Too many words as usual but I know I'm trying to describe a useful, yet odd production specific thing which won't maybe impact a majority of users but could be very useful to some of us. If I could gate the mic(s) in Pianoteq itself, I could apply these as a saved setting for any piano model onboard - no need to overuse the DAW for what's quite a fuss by comparison otherwise.

Some more wording in case that's still all put poorly

Any mic seems to bring the sound of the convolution reverb's virtual space along beautifully in Pianoteq. I feel the reality would be further enhanced by allowing the gating of a distant mic, so it's not pulling in the room so much until the piano is filling the hall more in heavier sections played at higher velocities. I understand it does this linearly but can be sculptured more with gating.

It seems the obvious answer is to just turn down that mic - but it's not quite the desired result - too linear might describe the result I would like to hear that mic less at low velo, and hear it more at higher velocity.

It would be esp. useful if the E.Q. of the mics can be individually biased toward bass or treble at that stage also, to darken or brighten the reverb triggered by the distant mic.

As it stands these mics can be altered with:

- left/right vol
- delay between left/right in milliseconds (brilliant)
- level compensation (which is a relative of this idea)
- delay compensation
- stereo width
- sound speed (interesting and excellent tool, relating mostly to delay above I assume to understand).

These are all excellent tools and go 99% of the way to mimicking things I'd like to do with a piano in a real location.

The one thing I can't achieve in Pianoteq presently, is a mic technique whereby one (or more) mics are gated and EQ'd, so that their signal is only introduced when the sound produced reaches a certain selected level.

That being implemented within Pianoteq would vastly simplify sound stage recreation and would mean not having to rely on a DAW for this.

Hope there's not too much repetition but the idea can be better understood, Cheers to all.