Modartt user forum - Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (scherbakov.al) — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 14:21:31 +0000

Yes, apparently, this feature should be within the well-designed mechanics of the numeric keypad, rather than simulating the software. Moreover, this is a feature only when playing and can interfere with the playback of the midi track. Most likely this is due to the long hammers possessing special inertia. And when playing pianissimo, the hammer gets enough momentum at the beginning of the movement of the key, continues to move to the string, when the key hits the damper in the middle of the path, then the rehearsal lever and the ausleaser make their emphasis .. and the pressure to the bottom may be weakening. These conditions create a certain delay. But in VPC1 (from which I repulse) simulation of hammers-short cuts with weights. And let the speed be measured at the hammer, and not at the key. But the inertia is different. Therefore, you need to press down to the bottom with a slightly different effort than the piano. Because of this, this time gap is visible and disappears. Apparently in other digital keys with longer "hammers" the situation is slightly different.

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (eriks) — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 11:09:33 +0000

If I understand correctly the physics of momentum, it's a product of velocity and mass. So on a real piano you would be able to use more mass (of your arms) on the keys as an alternative to a speedier press to transmit a bigger momentum to the hammer. This is obviously not possible if a keyboard measures only the speed of the key (it might help to use the mass of your arms to better speed up the key, though).

F. L. Keys with the Lachnit masterkeyboard therefore measures the speed of the hammer itself, see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzjGfjB4fyc

I've played around with the delay settings of the Kawai keyboards and **subjectively** it was an important aspect of the keyboard and sound generation acting "right".

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (AKM) — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 06:58:32 +0000

@Urs Zimmermann
I guees no. The position of the sensors in the keyboards is fixed. They only measure the time passed between them being crossed.

@@Philippe Guillaume, scherbakov.al
So how it behave in reality? My guess is that in a real ones it is the key depressed slower AND both the hammer moves slower (hits later). Not exactly sure though.
Also I'm thinking that adding a delay will mess up a MIDI playback, especially the quantized one.

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (Urs Zimmermann) — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 20:51:02 +0000

Could it be that the longer movement of the hammer results in even more delay?

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (AKM) — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 20:18:32 +0000

@scherbakov.al
Very interesting conversation. I totally get your point, and then M. Guillaume's response was also valid.

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (scherbakov.al) — Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:33:05 +0000

Yes, I realized that I confused the events. From this came a misunderstanding. It seemed to me that the sound is late relative to the bottom when playing pianissimo. This is not true. In pianissimo, the time to reach the bottom of the key with respect to the sound that appeared is lagging behind. It's as if the sound of a pianissimo appeared even halfway through the keys. I'm not attentive. Sorry. Therefore, this is probably not relevant for numeric keys. Because they create a midi event at the bottom of the key. But could this be simulated by the keys with three sensors? (The question is rather to the keyboard manufacturers).

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (scherbakov.al) — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 17:57:18 +0000

p.s. or I'm confused .. and all mixed up

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (Philippe Guillaume) — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:39:10 +0000

scherbakov.al wrote:

I think that there is a certain sense in making the delay of the impact dependent on the volume of the game. This is the convenience of expressive play. In this there is a greater realistic execution. The instructions for the new Roland rd-2000 model have information on the availability of delay settings depending on the volume of the game. I do not have the ability to test this function. And I do not know if it works with an outgoing midi-signal that could be transferred to Pianoteq. I know for sure that my VPC-1 does not. The "Humanization" function of the hammer blow, senses, tries to bring something similar. But I would like to ask for such a function in Pianoteq(of course with the option of disabling the menu(I think this is an extremely simple add-in for programming.)). Because a strictly defined equal delay of all notes on all loudnesses causes strange sensations and this moment makes you more re-arranged when moving between live instruments and Pianoteq. Thank you)

I understand your point, but if you play ppp on a digital keyboard, you depress the key slower, and get naturally an increased delay w.r.t. the moment where your finger came into contact with the key, is that not sufficient?

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (scherbakov.al) — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:56:38 +0000

marcos daniel wrote:

I think Kawai MP11 takes account of this

Uh, yeah, how lucky you are ..

but does it work only with built-in sounds or affects midi messages coming out?

Re: Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (marcos daniel) — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:42:47 +0000

I think Kawai MP11 takes account of this

Variable delay for the convenience of playing and intoning.

null@example.com (scherbakov.al) — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:13:24 +0000

Once I wrote about the delay of hammer blow depending on the volume of the game:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...60#p948760

This is from the article:

http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectur...ybott.html

Today, I accidentally came across another article about this feature:

http://www.escom.org/proceedings/ICMPC2.../Goebl.htm

I think that there is a certain sense in making the delay of the impact dependent on the volume of the game. This is the convenience of expressive play. In this there is a greater realistic execution. The instructions for the new Roland rd-2000 model have information on the availability of delay settings depending on the volume of the game. I do not have the ability to test this function. And I do not know if it works with an outgoing midi-signal that could be transferred to Pianoteq. I know for sure that my VPC-1 does not. The "Humanization" function of the hammer blow, senses, tries to bring something similar. But I would like to ask for such a function in Pianoteq(of course with the option of disabling the menu(I think this is an extremely simple add-in for programming.)). Because a strictly defined equal delay of all notes on all loudnesses causes strange sensations and this moment makes you more re-arranged when moving between live instruments and Pianoteq. Thank you)