Modartt user forum - Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (music_guy) — Mon, 04 Dec 2017 16:15:39 +0000

Urs Zimmermann wrote:

Maybe a solution to the problem?
https://www.waves.com/plugins/nx

Not sure that official Waves marketing video was so convincing ("Introducing NX - Virtual Mix Room").

This video from Waves marketing provides a view on what the plugin does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3GMg5CdBoI

The PianoTeq built-in binaural settings attempt to address similar challenges; regardless, they should provide better latency performance.

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (scherbakov.al) — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 23:41:58 +0000

https://www.theoretica.us/bacch4mac/

another and the opposite solution .. The price of it is a little bit biting)

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (Urs Zimmermann) — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 15:26:32 +0000

Maybe a solution to the problem?

https://www.waves.com/plugins/nx

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (Pianoteqenthusiast) — Fri, 01 Dec 2017 15:12:05 +0000

@Kramster1 @dklein ”Which ear get what?”
Figure it out or not - but this is how I see it, my simple commentary. Both ears get the sound, but not at the same time. Because we have two ears, our brain can decide the direction where the sound is coming from. When we play, we always move our head more or less. If looking a bit to the right, left ear get sound first and right ear a bit later (30ms for ex.), left ear sound more loudly. This give us an acustic image/reverberation. And in addition we have the sound reflexes in the room, not coming at the same time to both ears either. As I se it, many of the audio products are still technical limited, in a way, that they cant yet beat human brain understanding/experience of the nature of the sound in the real world (regardless of if there are 11 or 88 elements in a speaker). But the development process is never-ending, fortunately, and Pianoteq team, for example, have come so far with their product, almost reached their goal. I am glad that this forum give them a gentle push every now and then and hope they have the strength to go on.
- And the other question (probably a joke), cross eyed? No, I dont see why we should get cross eyed, although we move our eyes and head when we are playing. Well, thats what I think about it.

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (dklein) — Wed, 29 Nov 2017 03:04:29 +0000

Yeah...like I know that Polk Audio sells 6-, 8-, and 10-element speakers, but the piano is an 88-element speaker (as long as each unison is tuned, otherwise more like a 200-element speaker), yet worse (or better), as each element resonates against a large planar Magnepan- or Quad ESL-style electrostatic speaker element that lies behind each and all of the 88 elements. And then there's that crazy asymmetric case resonance, as well as that big metal vibrating harp that everything ties in to.

So, as Kramster1 asked, "which ear gets what?"

I have no idea, which is why it's been such a struggle to make my Pianoteq virtual piano playing through my Steinway piano's keyboard sound like the acoustic of the Steinway itself when Pianoteq is turned off and the stop bar is kept away from the hammers.

Kudos to all who go before us and figure out the answer to Kramster1's question!

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (Kramster1) — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 22:10:14 +0000

But when playing an actual piano which ear gets what? And will it make me cross eyed?

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (Pianoteqenthusiast) — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 13:49:53 +0000

I agree - the weakest link in sound is the last link, speakers. But it is about how we place them, too. We have to remember, that usually, or as a rule, speakers i set, in relation to listener, their angle has to be in 60 degree, equilateral triangle, to get out the most of the sound, sitting symmetrically in relation with speakers. But, because left speakers sound is for left ear and right speakers sound is for right ear, and some sound from left speaker still goes to right ear (and vice vers), it distract the listening a bit (with headphones you hear only left channel in left ear and right channel in right ear) That always make the difference between listening with headphones or speakers, and why headphones often sound better. Not to mention room, acustic a.s.o. Sorry for a bit bad english. Anyway, this is what I have experienced. I try to sit in equilateral triangle with my speakers when playing Ptq. It sounds best that way. And one get the best sound out of not so good speakers. Well, thats what I think about it.

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (Kramster1) — Mon, 27 Nov 2017 13:52:43 +0000

True on the speakers being biggest up.. or down grade of sound... I have two separate setups for my Pianoteq and change speakers and headphones just to stir it up some... interesting how some of the pianos sound better or worse depending on the particular setup.

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (first_fiddle) — Mon, 27 Nov 2017 01:42:50 +0000

I've spent quite a bit of time with Pianoteq 6, the new Steinway, the Ruckers hpschd, and several others. Wonderful modelings, perhaps better than the huge Ivory II sampled pianos (and certainly more fun for Philippe and team to build!) The greatest limit to quality is THE SPEAKER (or earphone), as it has been for 50 or more years. I've tried PTQ6 with M-audio monitors, Cambridge Soundworks computer speakers, 20-buck bought-in-the-airport earphones, Apple earphones, and a few others. Which is better? The 40-year-old KLH17 speakers!!! and the cheap earplugs!! Forget the special version of Pianoteq software for $4000+ computers with the latest 32-core video processor. Speakers better than the 50-year-old acoustic-suspension ones, at a reasonable price (the best studio monitors are for billionaires or bIg recording studios), would show what Pianoteq can do!

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (dstorfer) — Tue, 26 Sep 2017 16:06:49 +0000

skip wrote:

dstorfer wrote:
Maybe sans reverb one could find some differences, but that wouldn't be a practical use for it, so if with reverb you could barely tell, then - why do we need a more high-rez algorithm today?
Is "without reverb" an anechoic chamber?
Greg.

Greg, I just meant that in the digital sense. So if we had Pianoteq in its current form and played it without any reverb or effects, and then also used the hypothetical super-upgraded-ultra-Pianoteq, also with no effects, could we hear a difference in the sounds? I suspect that as soon as you add reverb when trying to A/B the two versions, it would soften the "edges" and blend the sound in a way that it might be much harder to hear the differences.

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (Beto-Music) — Mon, 25 Sep 2017 16:05:04 +0000

I imagined good studio monitors could get the full range of sound keeping the high quality for all frequencies.

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (oshogg) — Mon, 25 Sep 2017 05:51:02 +0000

dklein wrote:

Therefore, Pianoteq itself is a double-edged sword in that it does not tell you that you need to use specific speakers, but then again, you may need to do something to make it sound the best on your particular application.

This is true. I have found Pianoteq 'final sound to ear' vary greatly - even with the same preset and midi. It sounds great on higher range headphones - but not so much on some of the lower end ones. Similarly, it sounded good on the 'studio monitors' - but not as great as it does in headphones. It sounded really great on 'full range' home theater speakers.

Also, a bad velocity curve or the mismatch of the 'default normal' velocity curve to the midi controller can result in sound where all the keys feel really heavy and missing action and hammer hitting strings.

IMHO this partly explains why there are those who love Pianoteq and there are those who hate it. There are just too many variables to know what someone else using Pianoteq is actually hearing.

Osho

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (dklein) — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 20:38:36 +0000

Yes, one of the amazing things about Pianoteq is that it is hardware-neutral and can be used with any type of sound-producing equipment from headphones to speaker systems. This is much different than a brand-name arranger keyboard that has built-in speakers. When a company has its own speakers, not only do they get to pick the speakers, but they also get to tweak the equalization curves appropriately for them. I found this out when I used Pianoteq through a Yamaha Clavinova, both as the keyboard and as the playback speakers - the Yamaha voices and sounds work great on the Yamaha, but Pianoteq sounded horrible (I remember now a forum user here who once said this and published a Clavinova-specific preset for Pianoteq) - that let me see that all of the Yamaha piano sounds must have equalization built-in that are specific for the hardware that Yamaha has chosen. Therefore, Pianoteq itself is a double-edged sword in that it does not tell you that you need to use specific speakers, but then again, you may need to do something to make it sound the best on your particular application.

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (oshogg) — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 19:19:23 +0000

Lots of interesting discussion on the topic! I am really hoping someone from Pianoteq is listening in!

Osho

Re: Very high-end desktop and Piano modelling

null@example.com (dklein) — Sat, 23 Sep 2017 02:57:21 +0000

_DJ_, here's a thread from my experience at the multiple speaker setup:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=4625

I have my mains firing upwards, with smaller secondary speakers, potted down, aimed just to the outside of the player. With Pianoteq 6.0, appropriate width setting (0.40 with my speakers outboard of my piano, and appropriate velocity settings and volume, it's getting harder to tell the difference between real and synthetic when I sit down to play.