Also, it's interesting to have a good sampled piano, to test against Pianoteq as it improves... I've just bought the Garritan CFX (lite) which, in a way shows how close to each other the best sampled and modelled pianos now are- both are homing in on the other's strengths- timbre and playability, respectively.
As for e pianos, I've always been more forgiving of sample- related limitations (eg not quite inaudible velocity switches) than with traditional pianos. Maybe the fx that e pianos typically employ help to smooth sample zone differences and bind the instrument together. And I love the authentic timbres of Rhodes and Wurlitzer, which are samples' strong suit. I recently bought the new Scarbee rhodes- it's gorgeous, for the first time I feel I pretty much have an actual Rhodes in my laptop and under my fingers. And it plays wonderfully. For me the Pianoteq rhodes is considerably less satisfying and much further from the original electro-mechanical instrument. But again, I do enjoy it , it's a very different flavour from any of my sampled Rhodes.
In short, for both pianos and e pianos, I think both samples and modelling may have their place for some years to come.
In terms of playability, nothing in sample library realm really comes close to Pianoteq.
Garritan CFX has its merits
]]>Thank you, Urs, for your exquisite comparison. I hope you are fine now (and out of the hospital).
Thank you Fleer, hospital is over. I am still very tired, but now have a lot of time to play the piano :-)
]]>Anyway I would like to see better version of Steinway D. And it would be nice to have yamaha C7 from Pianoteq and maybe Bosendorfer 290.
]]>Urs Zimmermann wrote:I need to contradictthat. I have them almost all, Ivory, QL-Pianos, Native, Galaxy, Hans's room, several sampletekk and many more. I was always disappointed.
So what are your thoughts on the Bechstein Digital Grand, Wavesfactory Mercury Grand, ImpactSoundWorks Pearl Grand and Soundiron Emotional Piano, Urs? Or a character piano like CineSamples' Piano-in-Blue? Or the new version of ProductionVoices Grand? Would like to read your perspective on these.
Please forgive my Google-English
I am now repaired by the hospital. I now have a lot of time to make a comparison video.
The compared pianos are:
- PQ Grotrian Rec 3
- PQ Blüthner Model One
- PQ D4 Daily Practice
- Piano in Blue
- Pearl
- Emotionalpiano v3 Jazz
- Art Vista Supergrand Pop
When listening to my stereo (I usually play over headphones), Pianoteq cuts with all 3 pianos very well. With my headphones but in my humble ears always sounds something artificial.
Piano in Blue sound OK as well. When playing, however, it is noticeable that the Velocity has a gap. The piano sounds suddenly brighter with a slightly stronger attack, and there is a disturbing latency. Can not be heard on the recordings.
Pearl has, in de Bässen z.T. Something artificial otherwise not bad.
Emotionalpiano sounds a bit muddy for me. If you want it is quite OK.
Art Vista may not have quite the same dynamism as other Grands. I would like the next version. Otherwise, he sounds like a Steinway.
]]>All virtual pianos are but an interpretation of the idea ‘piano’. They give us a single angle from which we look at something incredibly complex. It’s like looking at Paris by looking at a photograph of Paris on a postcard. What we conveniently call ‘a piano’, is in actual fact a near-infinite collection of musical identities, each with its own character, strengths, limitations and specific suitabilities, and no virtual piano covers all that ground, not even a tiny fraction of it. Hence my need for as many virtual instruments as I’m prepared to purchase.
The exact same thing applies to all virtual instruments. They’re all but single-angle snapshots of infinitely more complex realities. Nothing more playable, for example, than a SampleModeling woodwind, but again … there’s only so much you can express with it — because its timbre (and the character that timbre suggests) is what it is. So, next to the SampleModeling woodwinds, I also have several sampled alternatives, to speak at those moments when the modeled woodwind’s voice isn’t the one best suited to what the music wants to say.
Piet,
in the terms you set out, aren't physical instruments then as well "interpretations of the idea 'piano'"? if you're going to invoke representational schema then surely it applies to whatever iteration we happen to be considering, whether it be physical or virtual... and, as you allude to, we have so many different instrument designs (sampled and modelled), not to mention tweakable parameters in our beloved app, precisely to reflect (and indeed independently produce) that very "near-infinite collection of musical identities". as you point out in discussing timbre, every instrument, physical and virtual, has its various "defects"/characteristics, but why do you then relegate virtual instruments to some qualified and dubious place (as you seem to with your "They’re all but single-angle snapshots of infinitely more complex realities … there’s only so much you can express with it — because its timbre (and the character that timbre suggests) is what it is.")? i don't think there is such a thing as the "perfect" instrument (other than philosophic idealities perhaps) but, as you suggest, every instrument (regardless of how the sound is produced) has its own unique quality which informs the music being played upon it... which, incidentally, is precisely the reason why i personally love all the different historic instrument sounds for the different composers and their respective epochs. 'seems like you're arguing the case for period performance here!
cheers,
dj
I agree totally with your explanation. No further comment required.
Cheers,
Joe
]]>All virtual pianos are but an interpretation of the idea ‘piano’. They give us a single angle from which we look at something incredibly complex. It’s like looking at Paris by looking at a photograph of Paris on a postcard. What we conveniently call ‘a piano’, is in actual fact a near-infinite collection of musical identities, each with its own character, strengths, limitations and specific suitabilities, and no virtual piano covers all that ground, not even a tiny fraction of it. Hence my need for as many virtual instruments as I’m prepared to purchase.
The exact same thing applies to all virtual instruments. They’re all but single-angle snapshots of infinitely more complex realities. Nothing more playable, for example, than a SampleModeling woodwind, but again … there’s only so much you can express with it — because its timbre (and the character that timbre suggests) is what it is. So, next to the SampleModeling woodwinds, I also have several sampled alternatives, to speak at those moments when the modeled woodwind’s voice isn’t the one best suited to what the music wants to say.
_
]]>All of that extra work and concern "went out the window" when I discovered Pianoteq.
Cheers,
Joe
]]>Likewise sampled EPs have never impressed me, but I haven't been persuaded by any modelled EP either.
I bought Scarbee's new EP-88s recently. It has 30 velocity layers and various release samples, etc. While it doesn't quite have the same interactiveness as a modelled piano, it has a phenomenal sound and I enjoy playing it.
]]>Urs Zimmermann wrote:I need to contradictthat. I have them almost all, Ivory, QL-Pianos, Native, Galaxy, Hans's room, several sampletekk and many more. I was always disappointed.
So what are your thoughts on the Bechstein Digital Grand, Wavesfactory Mercury Grand, ImpactSoundWorks Pearl Grand and Soundiron Emotional Piano, Urs? Or a character piano like CineSamples' Piano-in-Blue? Or the new version of ProductionVoices Grand? Would like to read your perspective on these.
I have to go to the hospital tomorrow. I sign up at the end of the week.
]]>Urs Zimmermann wrote:I need to contradictthat. I have them almost all, Ivory, QL-Pianos, Native, Galaxy, Hans's room, several sampletekk and many more. I was always disappointed.
So what are your thoughts on the Bechstein Digital Grand, Wavesfactory Mercury Grand, ImpactSoundWorks Pearl Grand and Soundiron Emotional Piano, Urs? Or a character piano like CineSamples' Piano-in-Blue? Or the new version of ProductionVoices Grand? Would like to read your perspective on these.
I have them all (unfortunately) and none of them are really useful for serious solo classical or any dynamic playing, for film scoring or slow ambient jazz maybe. Too far from realistic behavior and too much noise or velocity problems in any of them. I still think that for samples the best are VSL Vienna imperial (the best dynamic in samples), Ivory II German D, Garritan cfx and Ravenscroft. All others sample pianos are waste. You have been warned. Stick with Pianoteq or this 4 sample pianos if you like samples. Personally my top three are Pianoteq, VSl and Ivory German.
]]>I need to contradictthat. I have them almost all, Ivory, QL-Pianos, Native, Galaxy, Hans's room, several sampletekk and many more. I was always disappointed.
So what are your thoughts on the Bechstein Digital Grand, Wavesfactory Mercury Grand, ImpactSoundWorks Pearl Grand and Soundiron Emotional Piano, Urs? Or a character piano like CineSamples' Piano-in-Blue? Or the new version of ProductionVoices Grand? Would like to read your perspective on these.
]]>