Danni wrote:

Since finally one can now get a MPE capable controller off the shelf in music shops I would like to see pianoteq support MPE .

I would like to see Modartt do some interesting instruments that would benefit from a more expressive controller next time they want to do something that isn't a piano, I think they are in a position to do a really good job.

What is this, because if it means damper registering at 108.4 instead of 108, I don't think it's going to make a difference in the sound. Pianoteq can already do this anyway - at least with keyboard velocity.

I don't think advancements in MIDI is the answer to getting a virtual piano to sound more realistic.

It's mostly interesting for some newer midi based instruments that either try allow continuos pitching rather than discrete keys, or some for polyphonic pitch bending (each finger should be able to bend pitch independently of each other MPE really helps with this aspect). Look at the RogerLinnDesign Linstruent or the Roli Seaboard. In the later case particularly these are designed to be able to accurately emulate instruments that a really difficult to implement on traditional midi keyboard.

i'm sorry, but are you really suggesting that Zimerman's 76-take recording from 1990 is that of an "advanced midi player"!?  if you find it "dry", "plastic", or "synthetic" then a) you need to listen to a better copy of it than over youtube, and b) (as Stephan_Doonan suggests) there's something amiss in your audio setup.  as well, concerning Pianoteq, you need to a) get out of whatever headphones you have and invest in a decent set of studio monitors, and b) apply some decent fxp's that include minor randomization of the wide range of editable parameters and to apply some 'aging' to your instrument of choice.  it's absolutely true that if the sound is too perfect then it will sound synthetic, but luckily in Pianoteq we have a wonderful array of tools by which to introduce those sorts of imperfections that make an instrument characteristic and 'natural'...

The Zimerman recording does not sound plastic or synthetic, as it is a recording of a real piano, it sounds though like one of the many studio recordings, safe, perfect and uninspired. There is also a minimal usage of pedal, and it is not a way  of playing in which the piano is perceived as an orchestra. I call that the advanced midi players paradigm.. :-)
It is Pianotech which still has this quality in its sound, that is though not a complaint, but rather a reaction to someone in this forum who suggested that there is not much more to do for Pianotech in future versions (besides adding instruments, or focus on instruments other than piano's).
Now, my headphones are strong on the high frequencies, to the point that you hear sounds with it which you do not perceive, or hardly perceive with other headphones, that does not bring about a synthetic character though, it might amplify it, or other equipment might conceal it?

Now, maybe there is fault in my logic, but my logic is that if I perceive this synthetic character when I listen to a recording of Pianotech which is not a midi file, but a wave file, and I hear it in recordings made by different people, and I hear it both when I play it through the same system as the one I use for Pianotech, then the issue is not in my equipment.
I will do some more tests though, playing it through both systems which I have, and through headphones and normal speakers.

Regarding the quality of sound though, low bitrate music on Youtube etc, that does not lead to the specific synthetic character which I perceive in Pianotech sound, it can lead to harsh metal like piano sound, or heavily reduced colors in the sound when it concerns very old recordings, but never brings about that specific character.

Since finally one can now get a MPE capable controller off the shelf in music shops I would like to see pianoteq support MPE .

I would like to see Modartt do some interesting instruments that would benefit from a more expressive controller next time they want to do something that isn't a piano, I think they are in a position to do a really good job.

What is this, because if it means damper registering at 108.4 instead of 108, I don't think it's going to make a difference in the sound. Pianoteq can already do this anyway - at least with keyboard velocity.

I don't think advancements in MIDI is the answer to getting a virtual piano to sound more realistic.

I would like to see Modartt do some interesting instruments that would benefit from a more expressive controller next time they want to do something that isn't a piano, I think they are in a position to do a really good job.

To give an example of the 'dry' (techo-decadence?) 'advanced midi player's' technological sterile approach (recorded many times to achieve perfection):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeKMMDxrsBE

i'm sorry, but are you really suggesting that Zimerman's 76-take recording from 1990 is that of an "advanced midi player"!?  if you find it "dry", "plastic", or "synthetic" then a) you need to listen to a better copy of it than over youtube, and b) (as Stephan_Doonan suggests) there's something amiss in your audio setup.  as well, concerning Pianoteq, you need to a) get out of whatever headphones you have and invest in a decent set of studio monitors, and b) apply some decent fxp's that include minor randomization of the wide range of editable parameters and to apply some 'aging' to your instrument of choice.  it's absolutely true that if the sound is too perfect then it will sound synthetic, but luckily in Pianoteq we have a wonderful array of tools by which to introduce those sorts of imperfections that make an instrument characteristic and 'natural'...

(PS for a "less technological" but "dramatic style" rendition of the Liszt b minor, i'll take Richter's (1966) over Horowitz any day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-V4pAxcjo , and you get all sorts of lovely live playing artifacts (like audience coughing, etc) free of charge!    hmmm, now that i think of it, maybe those sorts of random live audience bits could be a new slider adjustment addon for Pianoteq 6...?  )

Perhaps it is something in your audio chain (soundcard, speakers, headphones, etc.) I personally find the Pianoteq Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano entirely convincing and a magnificent instrument.

One way to try to eliminate that as a possible explanation would be to listen to other recordings of pianos that are known to have sounded good in the past, through the same audio chain.

Greg.

there is this 'bell' like quality in the upper range, and still the 'synthetic/plastic' like quality

Perhaps it is something in your audio chain (soundcard, speakers, headphones, etc.) I personally find the Pianoteq Grotrian Concert Royal grand piano entirely convincing and a magnificent instrument.

However, to address the "bell-like quality" you mention, you might try moving the Impedance slider in the Design panel to somewhat less than 1.0, and the Direct sound duration slider in the Tuning panel to somewhat more than 1.0. Try that and see if it improves the sound to your ears.

You really need to play the Grotrian model.

Coincidentally, or not, I tried it today, there is this 'bell' like quality in the upper range, and still the 'synthetic/plastic' like quality, but it is the first time I found something else than the D4 interesting. I'm planning on buying it.

I take it the engineers are aware of this quality, but it is probably due to the whole model, the route they have taken, and that they cannot so easily get rid of it, without negative side effects.

In addition my take on it is that the age of the electronic generation and recording of music seems to have given rise to a certain approach to the piano sound which I think of as the avanced  midi players paradigm. This consists of an approach to piano sound where the dramatic qualities are neglected in favor of some kind of technical perfection, both in playing and the production of sound, which has also affected the playing of classical pianists. Most of the examples I heard of music played with Pianotech seems to be conceived from this 'advanced midi player' paradigm.

Pianotech seems to follow a mix of wishes (understandable commercial logic), these which gave rise to the development of the piano, the demands of classical composers and musicians,  being about increased capacity of dramatic expression and even conceiving the piano as an orchestra, or the rather (to my taste) sterile more standardized paradigm of the age of electronic production and reproduction. Of course Pianotech itself is conceived within this electronic/digital paradigm.

To give an example of the 'dry' (techo-decadence?) 'advanced midi player's' technological sterile approach (recorded many times to achieve perfection):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeKMMDxrsBE

The more rough or less technological perfectionists dramatic style (live playing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCLbyh_VXpQ

But of course, speculation is not worth much.  Any case, I am looking forward to it.

1780s Stein

1803 Erard

1809 N. Streicher

1814 N. Streicher

1830 Hafner

making these instruments available via Pianoteq would be an invaluable service to the musical public in terms of a) their utility (at least to those of us who are inclined toward historical performance) for playing music from that most extraordinary time in the development of the piano, b) their educational value in demonstrating that same development, and c) their historic conservation value in keeping these instruments alive for future generations of pianists.