I'm convinced this has a lot to do with the hard bottoming out of digital keyboards.

Recently, two things seems to be making a difference. One is being more aware of my arm/wrist position and trying to bring into play many of the things taught in the Taubman school. Secondly, although it's early days yet, having bought Pianoteq, I'm finding the touch of the keyboard is slightly different, and I'm aware that I'm not bottoming the keys perhaps as much as before...

I really can't understand why DP manufacturers haven't really addressed this shortcoming. Rather than trying for instance to mimic escapement (not acoustically necessary on a DP unless you want it to feel exactly the same as an acoustic grand), they should be spending money on reducing this keybed hardness.

Sorry but also interested to hear about your hand etc problems with the VPC1. My interest is because I am an Alexander Technique teacher and also used to conduct research into human movement control.

One point I'd make is that the problems you describe may not be widespread. Do you know of many others with a similar experience?

I certainly don't think everyone has the same experience. I for example use a VPC1 (with Pianoteq), and sometimes play for extended periods, without problem. There are some things that can make my hands ache a bit but this happens just as much on an acoustic piano. And it goes away more or less as soon as I stop playing.

There are undoubtedly differences between the experiences of playing digital and acoustic pianos, but it seems to me that there are equally big differences between playing different examples of either type, acoustic and digital.

But we're all different and we all play in a different way, right down to the exact sequence and degree of muscle activations we might use just to strike a middle c with our right index finger. Two pianists may superficially seem to be doing something similar when they play the same piece but what's going on 'underneath' is likely to be entirely different.

What I would suggest is that something particular about the digital instrument experience is causing you to react in such a way that you end up hurting yourself. If you're interested it may be possible for you to find out what this reaction consists of and therefore to stop making it, at which point the problem would go away.

Cheers, Ian.

1. I've heard that the piano feel is superb.
2. I think Roland has better quality control. I hear less online complaints about Roland.
3. The Roland has voices onboard including modeled pianos that compare favorably to Pianoteq.
4. The FP-90 has an onboard mic input + effects processor, facilitating gigging and making demos.

When I get it, I'll give a review. I might find myself using Pianoteq less, but I know that when Pianoteq comes out with a new version, it will cost well under $100 to upgrade. When Roland comes out with an improved piano model, you have to spend $2000 on a new keyboard and sell the old one for much less on Ebay. Additionally, only the pianos are modeled, the other voices are sampled.

Thanks for the info.  It looks interesting but probably too expensive for me.  Woud like to try one.

since you have the VPC1, I thought this might be worth asking if you have tried the difference between VP1 and MP11?

The MP11's longer keys should allow for playing into the keys. The pressure required to do so is not exponential. Just feels more real to me and my hands love it after 2yrs (other keys since 80s).

Something to also mention (especially if others also have the problem with hands suffering from the keyboard) is a curve to suit your playing. I really think this one pays to persevere with and it may end up to be the only thing you need to give more attention to with your VPC1 setup?

Hope that can help you get Pianoteq back into use.

Vpс1 this Audi. Lachnit -Porsche)

Thanks for the warning - I've always disliked Porsche. :-)

More seriously I think we're neglecting the personal factor a bit too much.  There's no universally better keyboard for everyone.  There are keyboards most people find very good ( and the VPC1 is surely one of them, I'd have thought ) but that doesn't mean everyone finds them good.

sandalholme wrote:

Re digital action design, competent classical musicians are still looking for an acoustic-style digital action at anything like an affordable price.

I'm not sure what you would consider an affordable price, but the Lachnit keyboard achieves this feeling of action, in my opinion. These employ a modified Fatar TP40wood action in combination with light sensors. It does not require bottoming out to the keybed as you play, and it reproduces much of the physical feeling of an acoustic grand action. You can read some design features at this link, but you really need to play one to appreciate it. I was astonished at how much more control it provides over the range of dynamics and timbres available in the Pianoteq models, compared to the many other keyboards I have played.

http://www.flkeys.at/FLKFaqEng.html

I really love and want to believe that this keyboard worth 4000 euros compare to VPC for about 1400e. It is just too much. This is individual project so I understand why the price is so high. For that money you can go almost for Kawai CA97. But OK, I love quality in small package so if I ever have that money I will probably go for it

Re digital action design, competent classical musicians are still looking for an acoustic-style digital action at anything like an affordable price.

I'm not sure what you would consider an affordable price, but the Lachnit keyboard achieves this feeling of action, in my opinion. These employ a modified Fatar TP40wood action in combination with light sensors. It does not require bottoming out to the keybed as you play, and it reproduces much of the physical feeling of an acoustic grand action. You can read some design features at this link, but you really need to play one to appreciate it. I was astonished at how much more control it provides over the range of dynamics and timbres available in the Pianoteq models, compared to the many other keyboards I have played.

http://www.flkeys.at/FLKFaqEng.html

I think the difference between of the keyboard synthesizer of present tool is that in this keyboard, you can get sound from the rapid of superficial pushing (giving the momentum malleus), and must always be synthesisers press almost to the end. This manifests itself in the hands of great tension during long game technically sophisticated products.

Hello Mr. Scherbakov,

I think you may have hit upon a great concept here.  The major difference between electronic- and analog grand piano keyboards is that the former must be (nearly) always depressed to the keybed.   With an acoustic piano, although it is desirable to depress the key note completely down to the key bed, it is not mandatory to do so.  I suspect that this difference in essentially 100% "bottoming out" with electronic keyboards, versus perhaps 80 or 85+% bottoming out (utilizing the hammer's forward momentum to contact the strings) might make the difference between the pianist getting more tired when playing an electronic instrument.   

Of course, analog grand pianos' actions are often require more downforce to overcome friction than those of electronic keyboards -- something like 50+ individual parts of the action for any given key note in a real piano, versus less than, say, a dozen or two parts per note in an electronic action, even those equipped with escapements and backchecks.  (I am more sure of the number of parts for a grand piano's action -- 54 -- versus my almost zero knowledge of an individual electronic keyboard's action.)

Cheers,

Joe