If Moddart thinks it would be worth pursuing, maybe Bernhard Stopper would give a copy of his software to Moddart for their use, for free in exchange for the publicity

Sound like a failry good deal - hope, both will agree....
:-)

I imported the scala file straight into Pianoteq Stage and all seemed well. When I got to the rehearsal we measured the D4 note and found it was slighty below the 440hz tuning. I haven't duplicated the process because this version of Pianoteq doesn't show the "tuning" window.
Maybe something went wrong when I imported the file.

I don't think there can go something wrong, once the scala tuning file is successfully loaded.
When I measure my A4 with the "chromatia tuner" software I get 439 Hz, but for both the Stopper temperament as well as for the standard equal one.
I think, as long as we do not use a real good and professional tuning meter, the results aren't too exact, there's always some margin of error with cheap consumer versions.

honjr wrote:

I'd support it as a feature request (as long as there are no legal issues)

OK, I just filed a feature request to Modartt.

Maybe someone else likes to express his support here.....
:-)

If Moddart thinks it would be worth pursuing, maybe Bernhard Stopper would give a copy of his software to Moddart for their use, for free in exchange for the publicity

Ciel Rose wrote:

Arkanda I loaded your scala file by dropping into the interface. Al worked well but after that I went to a rehearsal and my piano was not on 440 Hz. I just went to the zip file you provided and dropped a different scala tuning that didn't had this issue. Did you noticed this at all?

Just tested it and I have no differences at all, when using the stopper.scl file, my A is still at 440Hz, same as with the standard equal tuning

What pitch are you measuring? (Or hearing ???)

The difference in the Stopper temperament should be at the most close to 1 cent, if ever, compared to the equal temperament

Regards
Mathias

Hi Mathias,

Sorry for a late response, I've been swamped with work.
I imported the scala file straight into Pianoteq Stage and all seemed well. When I got to the rehearsal we measured the D4 note and found it was slighty below the 440hz tuning. I haven't duplicated the process because this version of Pianoteq doesn't show the "tuning" window.
Maybe something went wrong when I imported the file.

Best Regards,
                      Carlos Sério

I'd support it as a feature request (as long as there are no legal issues)

OK, I just filed a feature request to Modartt.

Maybe someone else likes to express his support here.....
:-)

Regarding this issue I read today a sentence in the manual, which I have overlooked so far, in chapter 4.2 "temperament" is written:

"A unique feature of Pianoteq is that tuning does not follow a pre-computed frequency table (except for the flat temperament),
but takes into account the inharmonicity of the strings, in the same way a piano tuner does with acoustic pianos.
Hence, the consonance of the notes is improved and the chords have a fuller and richer sound."

As I mentioned in another discussion thread monhs ago, I'm guessing this passage of the manual refers to the practice common and often customary among piano tuners of so-called "stretch tuning," used to compensate for the slightly sharp harmonic frequencies of the low-bass copper wound strings, as a chromatic scale is played downward toward the lowest bass notes, and the progressively slightly flat decay of the highly tensioned treble strings of a piano as a chromatic scale is played from left to right toward the highest piano notes, in order to make both extremes of the piano range sound more in tune. This is because the harmonic frequencies of the copper-wound bass strings tend to be a little sharp, but sound both louder and clearer to the human ear, while the high-treble strings tend to be pulled a little flat by their high tension as soon as they are struck by the hammer.

I'm betting that Bernard Stopper takes this stretch tuning into account when he tunes a piano, and that it can be accommodated or specified in a Scala tuning file, if the person creating the file chooses to take this criterion into consideration and adjust the frequencies specified for each note of the scale in the Scala file.

Pianoteq has its own stretch tuning feature and slider ("Octave Stretching") when using a standard temperament (such as the A 440 diapason equal temperament), with which the amount of stretch tuning can be altered to suit one's taste, although I'm not sure if this feature is enabled or disabled when microtuning mode is specified in the tuning section of Pianoteq (the button just to the right of the diapason setting) and a scala tuning file is loaded.

honjr wrote:

I'm no expert on tuning but certainly tuning errors can become cumulative over larger frequency ranges without a correction scheme. You can rarely exactly solve nonlinear partial differential equations (former physicist here), so most solutions are approximations that hold reasonably well only over a limited frequency range. I can use the Stopper file - it's still pretty darn good!!

I had noticed, intriguingly, that Stopper's impacts on Steinway B and Grotrian do not seem to be the same. If you have not tried it out on Steinway B, it might be worthwhile. I thought its impact on B was actually more pronounced than on Grotrian, but I'd have to go back and check to see if my impressions were roughly accurate.

Regarding this issue I read today a sentence in the manual, which I have overlooked so far, in chapter 4.2 "temperament" is written:

"A unique feature of Pianoteq is that tuning does not follow a pre-computed frequency table (except for the flat temperament),
but takes into account the inharmonicity of the strings, in the same way a piano tuner does with acoustic pianos.
Hence, the consonance of the notes is improved and the chords have a fuller and richer sound."

I guess this corrections are only possible with the built-in temperaments, it seems unlikely to me that it also works with any other temperament loaded from a Scala file.
If this is the case, it might a feature request? To include this stopper tuning in future PTQ versions and to have to corrections described also with this, IMHO, fabulous tuning alternative.

Mathias

I'd support it as a feature request (as long as there are no legal issues)

Thank you honjr for the suggestion to try the Stopper tuning scala file with the Pianoteq Steinway Model B. I like it, and am becoming fond of the Stopper tuning in general, for both the Grotrian and the Model B.

Me too Stephen

I'm no expert on tuning but certainly tuning errors can become cumulative over larger frequency ranges without a correction scheme. You can rarely exactly solve nonlinear partial differential equations (former physicist here), so most solutions are approximations that hold reasonably well only over a limited frequency range. I can use the Stopper file - it's still pretty darn good!!

I had noticed, intriguingly, that Stopper's impacts on Steinway B and Grotrian do not seem to be the same. If you have not tried it out on Steinway B, it might be worthwhile. I thought its impact on B was actually more pronounced than on Grotrian, but I'd have to go back and check to see if my impressions were roughly accurate.

Regarding this issue I read today a sentence in the manual, which I have overlooked so far, in chapter 4.2 "temperament" is written:

"A unique feature of Pianoteq is that tuning does not follow a pre-computed frequency table (except for the flat temperament),
but takes into account the inharmonicity of the strings, in the same way a piano tuner does with acoustic pianos.
Hence, the consonance of the notes is improved and the chords have a fuller and richer sound."

I guess this corrections are only possible with the built-in temperaments, it seems unlikely to me that it also works with any other temperament loaded from a Scala file.
If this is the case, it might a feature request? To include this stopper tuning in future PTQ versions and to have to corrections described also with this, IMHO, fabulous tuning alternative.

Mathias

honjr wrote:

Enjoy Stopper, but find it a bit out of tune (or, it conflicts with my tuning bias) for certain intervals. Try playing e.g. a B major scale descending from uppermost B over a repeated F#2 (convention: the second lowest F# on 88 key piano).

Piano technician Wilfried Meister writes on his page
http://www.klaviertechnikmeister.de/Neues-Element.html

"Die Nichtlinearität des Klangspektrums von Musikinstrumenten (Inharmonizität) erfordert zusätzlich eine Korrektur des theoretischen Faktors.
Die Tunic Stimmsoftware erledigt diese Korrektur automatisch und mit einer vom menschlichen Gehör kaum zu erreichenden Präzision."

In English:

"The non-linearity of the sound spectrum of musical instruments (inharmonicity) additionally requires a correction of the theoretical factor.
The Tunic OnlyPure software performs this correction automatically and with a precision that can hardly be achieved by human hearing."

Since Pianoteq reproduces also the inharmonicity of pianos the same statement will apply to the usage in Pianoteq, too.
And obviously the necessary corrections should be somewhat bit different between various PTQ instruments.

Unfortunately, to buy the Stopper "TUNIC OnlyPure" software for EUR 690,- , intended for professional piano tuners, might be a little overkill for use with Pianoteq.
Until we find another way to measure and determine the necessary adjustments, we are just left to our ears, I'm afraid.

BTW, I wonder, the necessity of (small) corrections might also apply to other tuning systems as well?

PS:
Maybe it helps a bit to increase the string length (since this will reduce inharmonicities)

I'm no expert on tuning but certainly tuning errors can become cumulative over larger frequency ranges without a correction scheme. You can rarely exactly solve nonlinear partial differential equations (former physicist here), so most solutions are approximations that hold reasonably well only over a limited frequency range. I can use the Stopper file - it's still pretty darn good!!

I had noticed, intriguingly, that Stopper's impacts on Steinway B and Grotrian do not seem to be the same. If you have not tried it out on Steinway B, it might be worthwhile. I thought its impact on B was actually more pronounced than on Grotrian, but I'd have to go back and check to see if my impressions were roughly accurate.

Enjoy Stopper, but find it a bit out of tune (or, it conflicts with my tuning bias) for certain intervals. Try playing e.g. a B major scale descending from uppermost B over a repeated F#2 (convention: the second lowest F# on 88 key piano).

Piano technician Wilfried Meister writes on his page
http://www.klaviertechnikmeister.de/Neues-Element.html

"Die Nichtlinearität des Klangspektrums von Musikinstrumenten (Inharmonizität) erfordert zusätzlich eine Korrektur des theoretischen Faktors.
Die Tunic Stimmsoftware erledigt diese Korrektur automatisch und mit einer vom menschlichen Gehör kaum zu erreichenden Präzision."

In English:

"The non-linearity of the sound spectrum of musical instruments (inharmonicity) additionally requires a correction of the theoretical factor.
The Tunic OnlyPure software performs this correction automatically and with a precision that can hardly be achieved by human hearing."

Since Pianoteq reproduces also the inharmonicity of pianos the same statement will apply to the usage in Pianoteq, too.
And obviously the necessary corrections should be somewhat bit different between various PTQ instruments.

Unfortunately, to buy the Stopper "TUNIC OnlyPure" software for EUR 690,- , intended for professional piano tuners, might be a little overkill for use with Pianoteq.
Until we find another way to measure and determine the necessary adjustments, we are just left to our ears, I'm afraid.

BTW, I wonder, the necessity of (small) corrections might also apply to other tuning systems as well?

PS:
Maybe it helps a bit to increase the string length (since this will reduce inharmonicities)

Arkanda I loaded your scala file by dropping into the interface. Al worked well but after that I went to a rehearsal and my piano was not on 440 Hz. I just went to the zip file you provided and dropped a different scala tuning that didn't had this issue. Did you noticed this at all?

Just tested it and I have no differences at all, when using the stopper.scl file, my A is still at 440Hz, same as with the standard equal tuning

What pitch are you measuring? (Or hearing ???)

The difference in the Stopper temperament should be at the most close to 1 cent, if ever, compared to the equal temperament

Regards
Mathias

Thanks,
              Carlos