Modartt user forum - Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (cpcohen) — Tue, 01 Sep 2015 04:17:35 +0000

mikeosborne13 wrote:

Thank you all for your replies. Phase cancellation is not something i had considered and may have something to do with my disappointing results. Even with my simplest setup i have a stereo output from my laptop plugged into an RCF ART 310A via XLR. So I have a stereo signal going into a balanced connection. That is going to result in phase cancellation? Yes?
I need to change the output to mono. How?

This could be a real problem. If the cable you use has the "+" XLR pin going to the stereo-plug "tip", and the "-" XLR pin going to the stereo-plug "ring" :

. . . the XLR might "see" the _difference_ between the left-channel and right-channel signals.

And if you run Pianoteq in "monophonic" output mode, the difference will be _zero_ -- the speaker might make no noise at all.

If you run Pianoteq in "monophonic" mode, and you want to feed an XLR-input amp:

. . . Use _one_ channel (either the right or left) from the PC's stereo plug, and run it into a "DI box"
. . . to get a balanced signal.

. Charles

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (groovy) — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:11:40 +0000

mikeosborne13 wrote:

Even with my simplest setup i have a stereo output from my laptop plugged into an RCF ART 310A via XLR. So I have a stereo signal going into a balanced connection. That is going to result in phase cancellation? Yes?
I need to change the output to mono. How?

Yes. A stereo-signal (two channels, Left & Right) is not compatible with one, balanced XLR-input of a monitor-box. One channel of a balanced input is inverted, which means 180° "out-of-phase". With one single Monitor I would use "monophonic" in Pianoteq. But I'm not sure, if all piano-sounds are 100%-monocompatible in PTQ (but the most seem so and without "phasy" artefacts IMHO).

cheers

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (GRB) — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:35:48 +0000

mikeosborne13 wrote:

Thank you all for your replies. Phase cancellation is not something i had considered and may have something to do with my disappointing results. Even with my simplest setup i have a stereo output from my laptop plugged into an RCF ART 310A via XLR. So I have a stereo signal going into a balanced connection. That is going to result in phase cancellation? Yes?
I need to change the output to mono. How?

All I know is "Monophonic" is the second choice under "Stereophonic" in the Output Screen.

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (mikeosborne13) — Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:47:05 +0000

Thank you all for your replies. Phase cancellation is not something i had considered and may have something to do with my disappointing results. Even with my simplest setup i have a stereo output from my laptop plugged into an RCF ART 310A via XLR. So I have a stereo signal going into a balanced connection. That is going to result in phase cancellation? Yes?
I need to change the output to mono. How?

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (cpcohen) — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 21:30:57 +0000

Modellingoptimist wrote:

AKM wrote:
So to avoid phase cancellation one 'may' use just one of the two stereo channels of his Stage version.
OK, sorry. For mono, where phase cancellation doesn't occur, you don't need to upgrade to Standard.

The "Stage" version has a choice among "Stereophonic", "Binaural" (for headphones), and "Monophonic". I've been using "Monophonic", and it sounds OK to my ears through speakers. I've always assumed that there was only one virtual microphone for that setting -- but that's an assumption, not something I've investigated.

. Charles

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (Modellingoptimist) — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:18:18 +0000

AKM wrote:

So to avoid phase cancellation one 'may' use just one of the two stereo channels of his Stage version.

OK, sorry. For mono, where phase cancellation doesn't occur, you don't need to upgrade to Standard.

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (AKM) — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:03:02 +0000

Modellingoptimist wrote:

If I'm right that mixing channels inherently leads to phase cancellation, yes, since the microphone settings are not tweakable in Stage.

So to avoid phase cancellation one 'may' use just one of the two stereo channels of his Stage version.

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (Ecaroh) — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:01:55 +0000

First post said it was a jazz event so I expect that mikeosborne13 is after a jazz piano sound which cuts thru - is clear, bright and punchy - but is same time natural. I believe that here we are once again in a situation where we speak about Corea - Barron - Duke -type of piano sound which is still the most difficult to get with Ptq, I am afraid.

Last time this came up with a thread about V-piano: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...65#p938565

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (Modellingoptimist) — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:38:52 +0000

mikeosborne13 wrote:

Thank you for your replies. I agree the ear is particularly sensitive to PA system reverb applied to the piano sound, and other settings on the mixer. Is it a trial and error thing?

For many "sound engineers" yes, I fear .

mikeosborne13 wrote:

Would I find any advantage upgrading from Stage to Standard?

If I'm right that mixing channels inherently leads to phase cancellation, yes, since the microphone settings are not tweakable in Stage.

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (EvilDragon) — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:34:03 +0000

Why don't you first tell us your PA setup?

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (mikeosborne13) — Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:06:44 +0000

Thank you for your replies. I agree the ear is particularly sensitive to PA system reverb applied to the piano sound, and other settings on the mixer. Is it a trial and error thing?
Are any particular D or K piano sounds more suited to amplification?
Would I find any advantage upgrading from Stage to Standard?

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (skip) — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 20:27:10 +0000

Just a thought - if possible, try playing those Pianoteq recordings that do "blow you away" through the system at the venue. If those recordings don't still blow you away, that could be a clue that it's the equipment and/or environment that's the problem. Try to use a recording that uses no or minimal reverb. You could then experiment with EQ and other things to try and get the sound to match as closely as possible the sound that you hear when it does impress you.

Greg.

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (Modellingoptimist) — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 20:07:32 +0000

Acoustic piano sounds live are a bit tricky. Even though stereo is a fine thing it's a sensitive matter. There are many bottlenecks: the panning of the sound itself, the PA, the sound engineer and the room acoustics.

I follow a minimalistic approach, especially in unknown venues and when I don't know the sound engineer. First, I never use reverb. When playing with a band I usually use the mono output. For solo performances I hard pan the mics to avoid phase cancellation, thus I don't mix the channels.

EDIT: I haven't come across the scientific confirmation yet, but I claim that mixing channels always leads to phase cancellation. Is this true?

Re: Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (EvilDragon) — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 17:57:56 +0000

It depends a lot on the PA system used... Bass amp doesn't cover the full frequency range in a linear fashion, so of course it would color the sound in some way.

Blow people away with a fantastic piano sound in a live environment

null@example.com (mikeosborne13) — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 15:59:18 +0000

I was at the Dordogne Jazz Summer School for a week, but my attempts of impressing people in the live environment were a bit disappointing. The sound through pianoteq stage on my laptop and the PA or a bass amp has not been as impressive as I had hoped apart from being ' a bit more of a natural sound with better resonance' and no noticable latency.
Can people give me some advice where to start to get that fantastic sound in the many pianoteq videos I have watched?
Do I need to upgrade to standard so I can make use of some of the customised sounds people have made?
What do I need to know to get the best out of the amplification?
Recommended midi keyboards?
What knowledge am I missing?