Synful Orchestra (synful.com) has something they call "Delay for Expression" which, when turned on, introduces a 1-second delay while the software "reads ahead" in the MIDI file and makes some really intelligent decisions about legato, attack, portamento, etc. in the instrument. It introduces an incredible amount of realism to my ears, and so may Modartt would consider adding some kind of setting similar to that so that users generating audio from a MIDI file could benefit from added realism such as pre-pluck buzz.

Just thought I'd throw that out...

Casiquire wrote:

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

This is implemented in the harp too.

Hmm, I didn't hear it when playing.

You can hear it for example in the following cases:

1. load "Concert Harp Daily" with default settings, play middle C forte and press the sustain pedal down after having played this note. You will hear the buzz produced by the finger coming in contact with the string,

2. load "Concert Harp Daily" with default settings, play middle C forte without pedal and then repeat the same note mezzo piano. You will hear a similar sound as in 1. If you have the PRO version, you can increase the loudness of this buzz by increasing the "Damper noise" parameter in the Note Edit panel.

Unfortunately, Pianoteq's current implementation of string damping sound is not the same thing as pre-pluck finger buzz. 

As mentioned above, I have tried to hack this string damping sound and the "Damper noise" parameter to simulate pre-pluck finger buzz, but without success.

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Casiquire wrote:

I agree, that sound is essential to harp playing!  Plus it could be implemented in a very similar way to what's already happening with the piano, where the sound of an already-vibrating string getting struck with the hammer is different from the sound of a silent string.

This is implemented in the harp too.

Hmm, I didn't hear it when playing.

You can hear it for example in the following cases:

1. load "Concert Harp Daily" with default settings, play middle C forte and press the sustain pedal down after having played this note. You will hear the buzz produced by the finger coming in contact with the string,

2. load "Concert Harp Daily" with default settings, play middle C forte without pedal and then repeat the same note mezzo piano. You will hear a similar sound as in 1. If you have the PRO version, you can increase the loudness of this buzz by increasing the "Damper noise" parameter in the Note Edit panel.

Casiquire wrote:

I agree, that sound is essential to harp playing!  Plus it could be implemented in a very similar way to what's already happening with the piano, where the sound of an already-vibrating string getting struck with the hammer is different from the sound of a silent string.

This is implemented in the harp too.

Hmm, I didn't hear it when playing.

It’s got nothing to do with the quality of the instrument. The buzz is the sound of what happens when a finger is about to pluck an already vibrating string (it can often be heard in acoustic guitar and, sometimes, upright bass playing as well (*)): it’s that very short moment, the instant right before the new pluck occurs, when the finger touches and dampens a vibrating string, resulting in that characteristic rattling buzz.
It’s not something that you can “get rid of” or that can be avoided. And most people rather like it actually. Although too much of it is usually indicative of a less accomplished player.

((*) Not to be confused with the string rattling against neck of an acousitc guitar or an upright bass of course.)

_

I agree, that sound is essential to harp playing!  Plus it could be implemented in a very similar way to what's already happening with the piano, where the sound of an already-vibrating string getting struck with the hammer is different from the sound of a silent string.

This is implemented in the harp too.

My understanding is that Pianoteq models a new sound every time a CC or midi message is received, so there's always a degree of variability to the model.  Meaning every time the sustain pedal is pressed, for example, a new sound is created and we never get the so-called "machine gun" effect.  The same principal could easily apply to the harp with this harp sound where you can adjust the intensity and length, and adjust the randomness of those two factors, and the algorithm would decide the best standard setting based on the volume at which the string is vibrating.

The problem is that the software can't guess in advance what notes you're going to play and when - implementing this pre-note buzz will unavoidably add a delay (latency) to the actual notes, if they're to be preceded by the buzz sound. However, when rendering midi data to disk, i would presume this can be done flawlessly, as far as i can see

Composers (like me) who work with Pianoteq in a DAW typically have somewhat different requirement from keyboardists who play Pianoteq live.  Composers need the highest realism, and latency is no bother - we can easily compensate for latency in our sequencers.  Keyboardists, on the other hand, like latency to be as low as possible, and they may be willing to sacrifice some realism to achieve low latency.  I hope that the next versions of the Pianoteq harp will also cater to composers!

In the other harp thread, I quoted Electri6ity's take on the importance of pre-pluck noises:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...83#p938683

BTW, over at the VI-Control forum, there is currently a discussion on the issue of portamento transitions in string libraries and the effects on latency and keyboard playing:
/http://vi-control.net/community/index....lay.46727/

Julian

Can the hands's size or finger1s size, tickness, make some difference on sound?

Don't think so.

Can the hands's size or finger1s size, tickness, make some difference on sound?

/* edit */ .... at least with standard midi. I think the Yamaha Disklavier sends note positions for each movement of the keys, even before notes are played, similar to CC data - maybe if that becomes a dominant standard used by midi keyboards, this pre-note buzz thing could be done in realtime without adding latency. Unfortunately, standard midi doesn't send any note data before each note is to be played. Such keyboards would be pretty expensive due to types of sensors used tho.....

Wouldn’t it be easier to think of that buzz as ‘string-damping (between repeated notes)”, instead of “pre-pluck finger buzz”?

In the original harp thread, I mentioned that I tried to simulate the pre-pluck finger buzz using string damping and damper noise:

Unfortunately, I have still not been able to get it working properly.  Perhaps other users with better mockup skills can do it better?

For this idea to work though, the damper noises themselves must be realistic.  (I have sent examples of the high-pitched noises to the developers to check.)

In any case, I tried something here, using the reverb pre-delay reflection (thus having a somewhat different tone than a straight repetition) to change to attack slightly so as to have more the impression of fingers damping strings at times. See what you think:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?id=2354