Modartt user forum - Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-11-01T14:37:02Z

AKM wrote:

So anybody actually tried them personally? How are they by personal experience? Overall they seems to be this days the king of the hill DPs from what I can explore about them.

They are indeed getting rave reviews. The proprietor at my local music store says he was blown away by the hybrids!

Chris

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-11-01T14:35:55Z

Cool, looking forward it, very interesting.

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-11-01T14:34:43Z

sigasa wrote:

AKM wrote:
Do you know if the mechanics and especially the fulcrum length are exactly the same in GP500 and GP300?
Same action exactly according to Casio specs and advertising. If you're mainly going to run Pianoteq, might be better looking at the cheaper of the two - the GP300 - which is £1000 cheaper than the GP500.
Kindest Regards,
Chris

P.s. I intend to review the Casio hybrids as soon as they arrive at my local music store early this month (I'm informed). I have been permitted to hook it/them up with my laptop for the purpose of assessing performance with Pianoteq. I'll post the review on this forum as soon as it's completed.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-11-01T14:33:32Z

So anybody actually tried them personally? How are they by personal experience? Overall they seems to be this days the king of the hill DPs from what I can explore about them.

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-11-01T14:29:50Z

AKM wrote:

Do you know if the mechanics and especially the fulcrum length are exactly the same in GP500 and GP300?

Same action exactly according to Casio specs and advertising. If you're mainly going to run Pianoteq, might be better looking at the cheaper of the two - the GP300 - which is £1000 cheaper than the GP500.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-11-01T13:19:21Z

Do you know if the mechanics and especially the fulcrum length are exactly the same in GP500 and GP300?

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-11-01T13:02:27Z

The Casio hybrid pianos (GP500 flagship, and GP300 in Satin Black) use longer wooden keys (Bechstein) and no (No) escapement simulation. This allows for faster repeated notes than on a concert grand (apparently).

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-10-30T13:02:13Z

mabry wrote:

GRB wrote:
The Kawai key system has a silicone nipple that gives the illusion of the jack release. It rubs against the key bed in some way to create the illusion. I wonder how long this will last before the nipples wear out.
After playing with my nipples for a couple of weeks, I ripped them out. I didn't like the way they felt after a while and now that they are gone, I do feel more liberated when I play. Sigasa did something similar with his nipples but I think he just pushed his out of the way.

In general, I like to play with nipples, but not my own (:

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-10-28T03:31:35Z

GRB wrote:

The Kawai key system has a silicone nipple that gives the illusion of the jack release. It rubs against the key bed in some way to create the illusion. I wonder how long this will last before the nipples wear out.

After playing with my nipples for a couple of weeks, I ripped them out. I didn't like the way they felt after a while and now that they are gone, I do feel more liberated when I play. Sigasa did something similar with his nipples but I think he just pushed his out of the way.

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2015-10-27T21:58:44Z

For me, authenticity and playability are not at odds with each other...if anything, authenticity improves playability. It's much easier for me to play and play accurately if I'm using a weighted keyboard.

Authenticity is, however, at odds with two very important constraints: portability and affordability.

Then again, you CAN get a new Williams Allegro weighted 88-key hammer-action keyboard for just $249. I'm sure it's not the highest quality product in the world, but hey, it's 88 hammer-action keys for $249.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Williams/Al...7619015002

The weight isn't terrible either...just under 30 lbs.

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2014-11-10T13:05:41Z

I'm interested in a light weight keyboard. While the feel of the Kawai is very good, I believe their keyboards weigh about 60 lbs as compared to 25 lbs for the Casio PX-150. I would favor an improved Casio. Interestingly one of the suggestions to improve the Casio would be to had a rubber noise dampening bushing at the front which apparently Kawai has done. Also Casio should add a wider tail at the back of the metal bar (hammer) so the weight would be better distributed on the felt strip at the back which I think will be very prone to compress as it is now. Also I favor an all plastic mechanism, as wood warps, and termites eat it. Living in Hawaii, that is a great concern. I have an older Chickering grand that has keys that have actually twisted over time. Of course plastic can be come brittle over time and fracture. The Kawai key system has a silicone nipple that gives the illusion of the jack release. It rubs against the key bed in some way to create the illusion. I wonder how long this will last before the nipples wear out.

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2014-11-10T07:48:31Z

Cute James wrote:

The main difference between RHII and RHIII is the inclusion of counter-weights (at the front of the black and white keys) on the latest version.

So, the keys are not heavier, they just have more weight?

You are actually describing exactly what I meant: I was talking about heavier keys, meaning keys with more mass, not a heavier 'touch'. The additional weights do two things: they actually lighten the touch in pianissimo play while increasing the keys' inertia at the same time, which is what you refer to as 'greater substance' in fortissimo.

What keys with more mass therefore do is increase the dynamics range I can play in a controlled way, and this is one very good additional reason for wooden keys apart from the different mechanical properties like rigidity.

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2014-11-10T00:31:38Z

kalessin wrote:

On a side note, Kawai has just updated the RH keyboard: now it's RH-III, e.g. in the CN-25 and CN-35. And guess what the main difference is between RH-II and RH-III: from what I hear, it's mainly heavier keys.

This is not correct.

The main difference between RHII and RHIII is the inclusion of counter-weights (at the front of the black and white keys) on the latest version. I explained this improvement on the PianoWorld forum a few months ago, but will repost the information here for reference:

RHIII is an evolution of RHII (which was an evolution of RH). The action mechanism remains largely unchanged, and the keys/key pivot are the same length.
One of the main improvements with RHIII is the addition of counterweights embedded towards the front of each key, visible inside the transparent black and white keys in this photo:
These counter-weights help to lighten the touch of the keyboard during pianissimo passages, but they also contribute to a feeling of greater 'substance' when playing with force. Kawai's wooden-key actions have long since featured counterweights towards the front of the keys, but this is the first time counterweights have been employed in a plastic key action.
One reason Kawai's wooden key actions feel so satisfying to play is because the key itself is solid, whereas plastic keys are hollow. We obviously can't produce solid plastic keys, however the added counterweights seem to improve that satisfying 'meatiness' of the action, to the point where it's approaching that of solid wooden keys.
Another improvement you may be able to see in the picture above is the presence of black 'shims' covering the lower guides at the front of the keys. These help to further minimise keyboard action noise and key stability. Generally speaking, the original RH action was already pretty quiet, and this aspect was improved with RHII, and now once again with RHIII.

An on the topic of wooden keys, I believe the KawaiMP.com website provides sufficient information about the merits of using this material for the keys of a keyboard instrument.

Kind regards,
James
x

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2014-11-09T22:36:43Z

. . . Thats why I say that a magical dream controller keyboard should be adjustable by user. . . .

I got interested in that a while ago. Googling:

. . . haptic piano keyboard

will get you some information. It's not impossible, but it's not easy, and it won't be cheap.

No, there isn't one on the market, yet.

. Charles

Re: Keyboards - Authenticity vs. Playability

2014-11-09T22:22:35Z

Not all acoustic grands have the same action or feel. On most grands the key length is the same as the balance rail is straight. On better pianos, the balance rail is off-set, and the keys are proportionally longer in the bass section. Weight is added to the front of the keys to adjust the balance. Key height has a lot to do with how a piano feels as well as the dip of the key. Raising the the height of the black keys just a small amount can make the action seem much heavier. Of course how well the piano is lubricated makes a difference in regards to the smoothness of the action. All of the friction points must move freely and easily. The jacks must be properly adjusted along with the hammer height, drop, and back check. Most keyboards on electronic pianos have very little or no adjustment. My Yamaha KX-88 had the pivot at the very back, a fishing weight at the front and a small leaf spring that provided the resistance. Velocity settings where sketchy at best as I could never get a full 128 MIDI velocity out of it no matter how hard I played it. Interestingly the Casio PX-150 has an actual gravity action with no springs. I have ideas on how it could be improved, but Casio doesn't write back when you make suggestions. Personally I think optical sensors would be better, but I'm not sure. It's possible that they might be too temperamental. In my opinion pianos with somewhat softer hammers are easier to control than ones with hard bright hammers which are usually the result of being voiced too hard. To really make comments on a piano's action, it's best if you understand how they really work, but in the end is a psycho-accoustic experience where a lot of the feed back comes from the ear, not the fingers. What is paramount is the ability to control the sound levels easily. That's the essence of music.