Thanks again for the examples and your input.
-Erich
Just a notice to all. My forum name has changed from gomoan4man. to nightwatch.
Also, Erich - I did a lot of experimenting with WIVI this weekend. Learned a lot more than I knew. But one thing that might interest you... I think you mentioned trying to get a lush "hollywood" sound.. Anyway, I turned off WIVI's reverb, but kept the room space, and then tried adding a convolution reverb that I'm familiar with, and BAM, totally different sound. It was fuller, richer and very lush. it changed the tone of WIVI a lot. I'm sure I can dial it in with WIVI's reverb, but it was just a quick test. Just thought I'd tell you.
]]>I'm glad you checked out Synful - it blew me away too, and then some examples left me wondering like you. I'm surprised that this older product was able to get that amount of control out of winds and strings. The plucked Double Bass and effect-bowings are awesome - I could see this used in a vintage jazz setting.
The thing they got absolutely spot-on is the transitions between notes in all instruments. Those are really convincing. Too bad that there doesn't seem to be any fresh development with this product. Maybe they ran out of funding or time, or both.
Thanks again for the examples and your input.
-Erich
]]>Hey, thanks for posting the audio files. Nice arrangements by the way.
I guess I hear what you mean with the WIVI sometimes not being quite there yet. When the tone is held out, it sounds great, but from note-to-note attacks and phrasing I can tell it is a software orchestra. I wonder if you edited all the articulations to no end (which would be very time consuming), would it be more convincing? Would it even be worth it?
This is where Synful Orchestra shines - the note-to-note transitions and attacks are very 'human-like'. Check out the solo and group french Horn examples on Synful's website:
http://www.synful.com/It's a shame this software appears abandoned, because I believe the development team was really on to something here.
I think that the attacks and phrasing are very good, perhaps the best that I've heard from note-to-note. The held out tone is not as good as WIVI/sampled libraries though. Oh well, once again, there is no perfect software solution.
Hey ericlof -
"I wonder if you edited all the articulations to no end (which would be very time consuming), would it be more convincing? Would it even be worth it?"
Most definitely yes!
I could have given WIVI a better moment here if I would have either played the lines with a wind controller, or had more time to edit CCs. In this case, this piece was step recorded and some minimal CC editing was done. Some of the demos you heard of WIVI on youtube that sound really good are a result of doing it right. Otherwise, and this is mostly true with all libraries, samples or molded, if not edited well, you get a fake sound. But I guess my point with WIVI, and some people who work with WIVI on a consistent basis will totally call me out on this - WIVI takes a little extra work. But ultimately, if you're going for realism, and I am, you need to have your MIDI chops together regardless. If you do that than WIVI will sound great. I may do another example that is more fugal like, with a smaller ensemble, and really massage WIVI and then post. We'll see how that goes.
I checked out Synful Orchestra. On the first couple of examples I was blown away. The strings sounded really good on the Beethoven String Quartet example, and the Rite of Spring example sounded great too! But then I went down a little further on the page and listened to some "fast cello" samples and it sounded really fake. Again I think that's just a case of getting the CCs right. It did seem like a promising product, especially since they managed to get strings sounding that good. WIVI said they'll come out with strings in a couple of years, but they said they're not there yet. Can't wait for that. Imagine the CPU, RAM and I/O activity decrease! The strings I loaded up for that piece took up about 12GBs of ram and maxed my CPU! WIVI took.. nothing.
I was surprised to hear some guys using WIVI saxophones in a jazz context because I didn't think they could get that full bodied raspy-ness out of WIVI. But they did. I know some guys refuse to go back to samples after using WIVI. I can see that. As I get better with MIDI (my weakest link), maybe I'll feel the same way too.
Cheers!
]]>I guess I hear what you mean with the WIVI sometimes not being quite there yet. When the tone is held out, it sounds great, but from note-to-note attacks and phrasing I can tell it is a software orchestra. I wonder if you edited all the articulations to no end (which would be very time consuming), would it be more convincing? Would it even be worth it?
This is where Synful Orchestra shines - the note-to-note transitions and attacks are very 'human-like'. Check out the solo and group french Horn examples on Synful's website:
http://www.synful.com/
It's a shame this software appears abandoned, because I believe the development team was really on to something here.
I think that the attacks and phrasing are very good, perhaps the best that I've heard from note-to-note. The held out tone is not as good as WIVI/sampled libraries though. Oh well, once again, there is no perfect software solution.
]]>@gomoan4man,
That would be great!
Here ya go. I did two takes.
Mary All - uses Cinematic Strings 2, WIVI Woodwinds, WIVI Brass, and a touch of Albion Brass (added a little depth to the brass section)
Mary WIVI - is just the WIVI Woodwinds and Brass, with CS2 and Albion muted.
I know it's a corny tune, but it was fun to write some old school counterpoint to. I also thought it would be a good piece to bring out the different instruments, so you could hear them in all their WIVI glory.
PS: and if necessary, to swell the sound: I have also Garitan PO (never use because very average)
]]>That would be great!
]]>Does anyone have any experience with Synful Orchestra? Although not totally convincing reproductions, I find that the instruments sound very expressive, like a human is sitting inside a recording booth bowing or plucking the strings, or blowing through the mouthpiece of a horn or clarinet. I was a little mistaken earlier calling it physically modeled - it is actually phrase modeled. The stuff between the notes/transitions is what shines in this software.
Is this product even supported anymore? - looks a little dated on the website (2009 last entry).
]]>Hi all,
If you like what modeling has to offer, the Synful orchestra VST is a lot like Pianoteq in that it uses physical modeling and has a very small footprint in comparison with the huge sample-type software orchestras.The strings have a slightly synthy sound to them but they are much more expressive, organic, immediate, and 'playable' like Pianoteq is compared to sampled piano VST's.
The woodwinds and brass sound pretty darn good too.
@gomoan4man,
I'm surprised that you find the WIVI woodwinds and brass 'not quite there yet', as this is the best modeling solution out there IMO for woodwinds and brass - even when put up against samples. They sound more alive and organic to me than everything else including samples. Of course I don't own them and have just heard demos, so maybe I'm not getting the entire picture. Please elaborate on your disappointments with them.
Well.. like I said, in some contexts I like them. They do sound good, and can only get better. But, despite the reviews, I have to disagree about them sounding "better" than recent sample libs. I recently purchased Project SAM's Orchestral Brass Classic, and while not as flexible as WIVI - with sample libraries you're kinda stuck with the basic recording of the sample - when I used them in something I'm producing right now, the ProjectSAM horns just sounded so warm and utterly convincing,... very organic and sat in the mix and sounded very real. I come from a contrapuntal background and don't need to rely on "sample fx" to get things done, but that aside, modern sample libs (like LASS, Cinematic String 2, Cinebrass, etc..) have taken the realism, and usability of sample based sounds to a new level (although they are memory and cpu HOGS)! I do like and use WIVI quite a bit, but even they themselves said they are several years away from being able to do the same thing with strings. I think that says something about sample modeling in general. You know how sometimes with PianoTEQ you'll play one of the instruments, with one of the presets and you're like, "Eh, not that good". But others, are like "WOW, best piano ever!" That's kinda the WIVI experience.
It's kinda hard to explain. Again, it's context. I could compose a wind quintet and use WIVI for my sounds and I know I would get a great result. Maybe even completely fool most people. Sometimes that's hard to do with samples because the way they are recorded. But sometimes samples really do it for me where WIVI sounds weak and shrill. Sometimes they do sound like an organ, or "synthy". That's what I mean by. "not quite there yet". I guess I'm saying they seem to, at this point to have a limited context, in that I have not been able to get WIVI to sound great in all situations. If you're using a wind controller you'll get MUCH better results with WIVI. I've heard some great trumpet sounds come from WIVI but they were done with a wind controller. Maybe I just need to use WIVI better.
Sorry for the long review. Here's an idea. If you buy the cheap WIVI Band you'll get the same basic sounds. Actually WIVI band sounds really good, and it's only $69, or something like that. Try that out and you'll have a good idea how the whole WIVI product sounds. Hope that helped.
]]>The strings have a slightly synthy sound to them but they are much more expressive, organic, immediate, and 'playable' like Pianoteq is compared to sampled piano VST's.
The woodwinds and brass sound pretty darn good too.
@gomoan4man,
I'm surprised that you find the WIVI woodwinds and brass 'not quite there yet', as this is the best modeling solution out there IMO for woodwinds and brass - even when put up against samples. They sound more alive and organic to me than everything else including samples. Of course I don't own them and have just heard demos, so maybe I'm not getting the entire picture. Please elaborate on your disappointments with them.
]]>I like the idea of sample molding, or modeling. So far in my experience PianoTEQ is the best of the molding crowd. I don't like Ivory or any of the other piano sample libs, except 8DIO's 1928. That's a different animal, but it has a specific use and that's what makes it so cool.
I'd like to hear some of you try to copy that piano and make a FXP. Now that would be awesome!
]]>mmh you're tempting me.. the only problem is to check if they permit license transfer.. anyway I'm moving the discussion to pm
ok
]]>ah ok, happy for this
I own notion3 sle for Miroslav but honestly I never use it.. )
maybe you accept to selling me your notion 3 sle for Miroslav to me ???
say yes!!!
]]>