Français :

Effectivement la résonance sympathique fonctionne très bien dans Pianoteq même avec
les transitions pedal up and down dans les deux sens quand certaines notes restent enfoncées.

L'idée serait cependant de rajouter un réglage pour augmenter dans le temps le délai entre l'attaque des notes et l'action de la pdéale sustain.

Car il me semble que dans mon Schimmel ce délai est un peu plus grand en position "player"

English :

It works. Very good Sympathetic resonance wirh pedaling and repedalling.
However, it would be better with an user delay parameter for this case.

Anyway, Bravo. Pianoteq 4 sound good and is in the right way.

I've done some tests today and indeed if I manage to be really quick with the after pedal, I can hear the resonance. Maybe as a personal preference I would like to be able to increase the degree of "after pedal" resonance (and/or get wider timing tolerance) to make it a bit more emphasized. It would be interesting to make a comparison against a real piano to measure timing/resonance ratio.

A suggestion: with reverb off, push the Sympathetic resonance slider all the way to the right, you'll hear it very well. Maybe increase the default value to your preference.

EDIT: Sorry, reading the thread again, I see now that you tried that on post #4. Still the effect is pretty strong to me with headphones...

Olivier, please listen carefully to the example "After pedal" that we uploaded this morning, it does exactly what you mention, the sequence being:
1) press a key and keep it down
2) x seconds after, press the sustain pedal down
3) you hear the sympathetic resonance of the other strings.
The shorter the delay between note and pedal, the stronger the resonance. We demonstrate it for x = 0.4, 0.2, 0.1, 0.05, 0.025, 0. For longer delays (above 1 second), it becomes almost inaudible, like on a real acoustic piano.

I'm agree with your explainations and it's the good behaviour, but with the demo version 4.0.1 even with a short time i don't hear anything.
for X = 0.4 i hear anything

Bug ? i use sennheiser HD 25 headphones

( ou sinon je dois réparer mes oreilles : je deviens vieux)

And what about other users of this forum who don't understand French but want to understand what you're talking about, Olivier?

Philippe - perhaps this forum could use a separate English and French discussion forum sections?

with my poor english :

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Good and working in pianoteq 4.0.1 :
Case 1 : Pedal down to pedal up,  a short time, after playing a note without releasing it :

If you depress the sustain pedal a short time after playing a note pedal down and keep holding this note,
the other strings that were into sympathetic resonance, don't resonate anymore or less. depend on time
and repedalling
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But not working  in Pianoteq 4.0.1 :
Case 2 : Pedal up to pedal down,  a short time, after playing a note without releasing it :

If you press the sustain pedal a short time after playing a note pedal down and keep holding this note,
the other strings are into sympathetic resonance. Dry to Wet "sustain"

In a real piano, you hear the others strings in this case. But not in Pianoteq 4.0.1
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To hear this and compare, you have to mute the pedal mechanical noise.

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Philippe,

CyberGene I think is right.

As much as I am excited about the advances of Pianoteq 4 but there is sth wrong
at the sympathetic resonance / sustain in this case:

to understand it you have to remove the noise of the pedal in Pianoteq (the pedal noise),
to hear if the sympathetic resonance of Sustain works well:

C4 played without the pedal -> it rings without harmonics

after that

C4 played without the pedal and pressing the button activates C4 1 sec after the attack on C4
sustain pedal

well in a real piano you hear all the harmonics of the strings released related
close to the attack (1sec to 3 sec) but in the Pianoteq sympathetic resonance strings released in maintaining C4 down from up to down pedal does not operate in this case
Pianoteq.

However in the opposite case it works ....
(If you attack C4 pedal down and hold it down as you pass C4 pedal up quickly after the attack, the harmonics
ropes released other than C4 cease to resonate ... and in that sense it works)

So it's a bug ...

I beg compares with a real piano on. With just the C4 example

tested with 4.0.1 and the demo compared with my real piano and the Garritan Steinway.

I think it is enough to program in fonctione the time between the attack of a note up that pedal is pressed with the action of the pedal down, release of sympathetic resonance of the rules for strings released near the attack.

Contact me by PM if you want.

This is tricky.

So this is not the case "after pedal" that explains cybergen

but we should rethink a case

"Action of the sustain pedal after the attack near a note that without sustain pedal is pressed"

This system tries to explain what is Cybergene
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Philippe - perhaps this forum could use a separate English and French discussion forum sections?

CyberGene wrote:

Guillaume, what I describe here is different than pedal catch/repedalling. Pedal catch is the following:

1. Press a key
2. Release the key
3. Very shortly after that press the damper pedal.

What I describe is:

1. Press a key
2. Keep holding it
3. Press the damper pedal.

In my case the damper for the key stays open for the whole time and there's no need for the string to be "caught". However in both cases the dampers for all strings get lifted on step 3 which should generate sympathetic resonance to these string, caused by the initially pressed key. Try my scenario by pressing the damper pedal immediately after you've pressed the key. Even if you press it only in a hundredth of a second after you've pressed the key, the resonance is way too low and that isn't realistic according to me. I'll prepare a MIDI file tomorrow to demonstrate what I mean.

CyberGene, I stand corrected, what you mention is different from pedal catch. Pianoteq does produce the sympathetic resonance you are describing. To demonstrate it, we have added a demo under the item "After pedal" in the features page http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_features, I think it answers your question.

Philippe,

Je crois que CyberGene a raison.

Autant je suis enthousiaste sur les avancées de Pianoteq 4 mais il y a qq chose qui ne va pas
au niveau de la résonance sympatique/sustain dans ce cas :

pour le comprendre il faut enlever le bruit de la pédale dans pianoteq (le pedal noise),
pour bien entendre si la résonance sympatique du sustain fonctionne bien :

joue C4 sans la pédale -> il sonne sans les harmoniques

après cela

joue C4 sans la pédale et en maintenant la touche C4 enfoncée actionne 1 sec après l'attaque de C4
la pédale sustain

et bien dans un vrai piano tu entends toutes les harmoniques des cordes libérées liées
à l'attaque proche (1sec à 3 sec)  mais dans Pianoteq la résonance sympatique des cordes libérées en maintenant C4 enfoncée en passant de pedal up à down ne s'actionne pas dans ce cas
Pianoteq.

En revanche dans le cas inverse cela fonctionne....
(Si tu attaques C4 pedal down et que en le maintenant enfoncé C4 tu passes pedal up rapidement après l'attaque , les harmoniques
des cordes libérées autres que C4 cessent de résonner... et dans ce sens ça fonctionne)

Donc c'est un bug...

je t'en prie compare avec un vrai piano de suite. Avec simplement le C4 par exemple

testé avec la demo 4.0.1 et comparé avec mon piano réel et le Garritan Steinway.

je pense qu'il suffit de programmer en fonctione du délai entre l'attaque d'une note pedal up qui reste enfoncée avec l'action de la pedal down, la libération des régles de la résonance sympatique pour les cordes libérées proche de l'attaque.

Contacte moi en MP si tu veux.

Ce point est délicat.

donc c'est pas le cas "after pedal" que cybergen explique

mais il faudrait repenser un cas

"action de la pedal sustain après l'attaque proche d'une note sans pédale sustain qui reste enfoncée"

c'est ce qu'essaye d'expliquer Cybergene

Guillaume, what I describe here is different than pedal catch/repedalling. Pedal catch is the following:

1. Press a key
2. Release the key
3. Very shortly after that press the damper pedal.

What I describe is:

1. Press a key
2. Keep holding it
3. Press the damper pedal.

In my case the damper for the key stays open for the whole time and there's no need for the string to be "caught". However in both cases the dampers for all strings get lifted on step 3 which should generate sympathetic resonance to these string, caused by the initially pressed key. Try my scenario by pressing the damper pedal immediately after you've pressed the key. Even if you press it only in a hundredth of a second after you've pressed the key, the resonance is way too low and that isn't realistic according to me. I'll prepare a MIDI file tomorrow to demonstrate what I mean.

CyberGene, I stand corrected, what you mention is different from pedal catch. Pianoteq does produce the sympathetic resonance you are describing. To demonstrate it, we have added a demo under the item "After pedal" in the features page http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_features, I think it answers your question.

Guillaume, what I describe here is different than pedal catch/repedalling. Pedal catch is the following:

1. Press a key
2. Release the key
3. Very shortly after that press the damper pedal.

What I describe is:

1. Press a key
2. Keep holding it
3. Press the damper pedal.

In my case the damper for the key stays open for the whole time and there's no need for the string to be "caught". However in both cases the dampers for all strings get lifted on step 3 which should generate sympathetic resonance to these string, caused by the initially pressed key. Try my scenario by pressing the damper pedal immediately after you've pressed the key. Even if you press it only in a hundredth of a second after you've pressed the key, the resonance is way too low and that isn't realistic according to me. I'll prepare a MIDI file tomorrow to demonstrate what I mean.

P.S. Of course, I am talking about very quick repedaling, otherwise the string won't have enough energy to excite the harp audibly, I am aware of that. My experiments with Pianoteq 4 today showed me that even if I am very quick with the repedalling, it still doesn't sound like there is any resonance, however I will try to repeat my tests tomorrow and prepare a MIDI file.

One note whith out the attack part cannot get the other strings to vibrate enough to produce much sound.
I think that the release of the dampers will produce more sound to all the strings than the one note vibrating.
This answer is by the way just based on my own logical thinking.

I follow what you are talking about (although I wasn't quite sure until post No.14).

I'm certain that both upright and grand pianos can do this; it is a form of sympathetic resonance.

As you say, the string doesn't have to be "caught" as it keeps on vibrating - the only change is that all the strings that were previously dampered are now able to vibrate sympathetically from the energy transmitted through the soundboard.

I've never tried it with an AC or Pianoteq, but know it will work with an AC.

While it may not work with Pianoteq, this is a function that I think could be programmed into Pianoteq (at what effort though, I don't know).  Perhaps Philippe could enlighten us.

On the other hand, I would think that a sample based system could not do this - and I still suspect that what the sample people pass off as sympathetic resonance isn't really SR.

Aside from this, if you are considering purchasing Pianoteq, I would suggest that you seriously consider Pianoteq Pro.

Glenn

-Record a mp3 of this effect on Steinberg The Grand, and the performance as midi file.

-Record a mp3 on pianoteq 4 using the same midi file, and also save the fxp.

But it's funny to think about Rohade said... if painoteq follows the laws of physics, it must be right, ...unless it have someting that turn it more or less loud from a  piano model to another due characteristics of materials etc....