Regardless, for me, it would be wonderful to have this sound in a PTeq model. I wonder if editing one of the fortes or the Erard can create something close to it? Anyone?

Erard, maybe. After all we got all those parameters like stretch, impedance, damper duration. I just lack a bit of the incentive to try.

Jake Johnson wrote:

Yes, but did you listen to\see the recording and slideshow at my above link ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNIaUxzI2n4 ) of the Chickering model that is similar in age to that of the original poster

If you mean to endorse restoring old pianos with this recording (in the hope of getting something usable), let me say that this is the very "old piano" sound that I certainly would not spend any money on. Not on the piece of antique furniture and not on the futile attempts to make it a "piano" again.

Sounds like big time damper issues and like it will never be in tune again. And this is an ad of a piano technician, so supposedly the piano is already in top condition (as "top" as it gets).

Ah, well. I love the sound of that recording. Would I put $20,000 into restoring one to that state? Only if I were wealthy. Would I spend $5000 to restore one to that state? Very possibly. Partly because I like the sound and partly out of a desire to preserve what is becoming a rare instrument from a good company.

Although I don't find them all that objectionable, since they add to the sense of "old," I do hear the tuning problems. (Some it may come from unisons just not well tuned, and some of it may come from the lack of stretch. (?) (I don't really know, but wouldn't these pianos force one to use very little, if any, stretch in tuning the octaves?)

Regardless, for me, it would be wonderful to have this sound in a PTeq model. I wonder if editing one of the fortes or the Erard can create something close to it? Anyone?

Yes, but did you listen to\see the recording and slideshow at my above link ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNIaUxzI2n4 ) of the Chickering model that is similar in age to that of the original poster

If you mean to endorse restoring old pianos with this recording (in the hope of getting something usable), let me say that this is the very "old piano" sound that I certainly would not spend any money on. Not on the piece of antique furniture and not on the futile attempts to make it a "piano" again.

Sounds like big time damper issues and like it will never be in tune again. And this is an ad of a piano technician, so supposedly the piano is already in top condition (as "top" as it gets).

Luc Henrion wrote:

About the 100 years old soundboard... well, talk about this to a violonist with his Guarnerius or Stradivarius... ! :-)

That's different b/c a violin soundboard is much smaller and not so prone to cracks or fissures (it's easier to maintain and protect).

After all, Stradivariuses are still in use today for serious work while pianos of that age group are a curiosity really, mostly played in museums.

And, while I must say I am not a piano technician, I think a piano soundboard is somewhat artificially put under tension (which loosens over time, contributing to the "vintage" sound) to maintain impedance while a violin is stable in itself…

Yes, but did you listen to\see the recording and slideshow at my above link ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNIaUxzI2n4 ) of the Chickering model that is similar in age to that of the original poster (who is doubtless now regretting having posted)?

And remember that he is probably not interested in having the finish redone (one of the largest expenses) and has already bought the new strings (another large expense). I don't know what the costs of installing new pins or replacing the pin block and\or agraffes, or even the hitch pins are in his area. Looking on the Piano World site for about fifteen minutes, I'm guessing anywhere from well under 1K just to have bigger tuning pins installed to 3K for a new pin block and agraffes and hitch pins. Not inexpensive. But worth having a technician look at.

The crown may be gone and the keys need work, but we don't know how much. Sorry to defend an attempt to preserve this instrument. It may come from my memory of paying $175 for a 1940's Gibson archtop guitar in the 1980's and less than a year selling it for the same price because I couldn't get it to sound the way I wanted (like my flattop). I still cringe when I remember letting that guitar get away, and when I see someone about to give up on an instrument, I remember my enormous mistake.

About the 100 years old soundboard... well, talk about this to a violonist with his Guarnerius or Stradivarius... ! :-)

That's different b/c a violin soundboard is much smaller and not so prone to cracks or fissures (it's easier to maintain and protect).

After all, Stradivariuses are still in use today for serious work while pianos of that age group are a curiosity really, mostly played in museums.

And, while I must say I am not a piano technician, I think a piano soundboard is somewhat artificially put under tension (which loosens over time, contributing to the "vintage" sound) to maintain impedance while a violin is stable in itself…

By the way, the problem of ringing after release is a well-known one: in one of his letters, Beethoven himself writes about a piano whose release is better handled than another one (I don't remember the brands right now).

About the 100 years old soundboard... well, talk about this to a violonist with his Guarnerius or Stradivarius... ! :-)

Here is a picture of Liszt's Steingraeber... impressive, really !!!

http://www.dieklaviermachermeister.at/h...hp?lang=en

So maybe the "nostalgic" tone would be something Liszt himself (or Beethoven) wouldn't have enjoyed a lot.

In fact, there is much music that does not sound particularly well on a worn-out piano (and wouldn't likely have been written that way). Imagine Feux Follets on a slow, sloppy and out-of-tune vintage grand where each note rings for another .5 to 1 second or so after release. I think those Steingraeber's and Pleyel's did sound much more tight and "new" back then.

2000 € is a lot though certainly not too much for a 1949 piano. After all, many models from after 1930 (or so) are not exactly hopeless in terms of restoration. Any attempt on a 19th century instrument would, however, come close to starting over w/ new action, soundpost, bearings, probably hammers – virtually everything on the inside. And what about a soundboard that's over 100 years old? That's part of the "charming" vintage sound, I'd say. But back then, it was fresh and tight.

Any reasonable repair of a 1800s "oldie" cannot be obtained for 2.000 € but would come close to the price of a decent 2nd hand modern piano.

And about the guys I recorded (in another piece and on another piano) and the beauty of old (forte)pianos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsCn8lbRG3I

Sure. But the question is, can and will you and I afford to grab an antique piano from bulk garbage and put huge amounts of money in the restoration until it is halfway playable again? I can't, and I wouldn't even if I could.

I think that's the main issue with playing pianoteq. It sounds like squeezed in a narrow spot.

I once attended a demo session of Ohm speakers. These are basically broadband omnidirectional speakers. They do have an extra tweeter that is directional, but all of the midrange (up to 8k or so) is radiated to all sides.

These speakers have the effect that you can move outside the sweet spot and do not get the same sonic shifts you get with conventional speakers. And they were the first speakers I ever got to hear that basically sounded like my open design AKG K601 headphones (which I love).

It was a listening session only and I did not have the opportunity to play PTQ through them, but I liked the open and soft sound very much. I could not afford these speakers until now but would likely get some if I could.

Re. the restoration issue: If you can afford an expensive restoration of that old piano, fine, but don't expect to get a very precise or responsive instrument. Unless you're rebuilding (or replacing) most of the interior. I don't care much for nostalgia when it comes to musical instruments.

IMO, an instrument should be judged by its performance and not by its appearance or the fact that it might have been "really good" in 1840. That's different with furniture, but after all it is still an instrument!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNIaUxzI2n4

After listening to this, I certainly want Pianoteq to develop a model of this piano. And of course it makes me want to continue my perhaps unwanted, presumptive suggestion that you study the possibility of doing a few repairs on it.

After reading about the cracked harp and the problem with holding a tuning, I have to ask: Was it in the past mistakenly tuned to A440? My understanding is that that would be the exact recipe for cracking the harp, loosening the grip on the pins, and loosening the pin block and\or loosening the agraffes.

If you have had it restrung, then you've doubtless spoken with a technician, so I'm sorry if this advice is unneeded, but...if it's currently tuned to around A440, my advice would be to immediately (today) lower the pitch, or the situation will get worse--the harp crack will possibly widen and the pins or pin block and\or agraffes will almost certainly pull out further. These pianos just weren't made for that much tension. (Sorry to raise all of this, and to detract or distract from your interesting and valid intention but a Chickering is not a thing to let deteriorate if you can prevent it by simply lowering the pitch.)

Not an easy decision--when to give up on a piano. One consideration is that while the needed repairs may not be inexpensive, they may not cost nearly as much as one might fear. A complete restoration usually means a complete refinishing of the wood, adding new shanks and new hammers, a new action, and new strings. You've already had the new strings installed. Even with the cracked harp, you may just need to have the pins replaced with oversized pins. Things might be worse: you may need to have the agraffes reseated and re-glued or even a new pin block, if its pulled loose. (See http://www.jonespianohouse.com/JPH_Harpo.htm for one condensed source of information) The good people in the teq forum at http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...Forum.html usually have generous and practical advice, too, although, again, I would expect to get a mixture of views. If you post there, do mention that it is a Chickering that is at issue. )

Cheers. Looking forward to hearing what you do and more generally to learning what suggestion arise about putting speakers into a piano cabinet, whether it's this piano or another. (I've read that in creating the Avant Grand, the speakers were placed where the close mics were placed when the samples were recorded.)

Sorry for the long post. I just love the sound of the Chickering in that recording on the Schaffer site.   

In any event, your piano teq can advise you, obviously, much better than I can about the minimal repairs to get it into basic shape.

Let's try to keep your piano in its original state.

Wim.

Wim.