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	<title type="html"><![CDATA[Modartt user forum - C3 rattle sound]]></title>
	<link rel="self" href="https://forum.modartt.com/extern.php?action=feed&amp;tid=1989&amp;type=atom"/>
	<updated>2011-11-10T22:54:04Z</updated>
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	<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?id=1989</id>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=19042#p19042"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I hear this as well on any of the C3 presets. More so with p-ppp.</p><p>Along with the EQ settings provided by Qberticus to hear the artifact more pronounced, I found that it is also more audible with all action noises turned off. This also led me to the conclusion that the artifact is not within these noises which narrows it down a bit.</p><p>Perhaps this won&#039;t be much of a problem once PT4 comes out. <i class="far fa-smile smiley"></i></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[violoncellemuse]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=2452</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-11-10T22:54:04Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=19042#p19042</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=19018#p19018"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve fixed my ringing problem by just switching to YC5 and not really using C3 as much.</p><p>However, I finally had some free time to identify what are the frequencies that bother me.</p><p>I start with the C3 Solo Recording preset and set the temperament to well tempered.</p><p>I&#039;m going to assume the note C3 equals middle C. </p><p>If I play C1 without any equalizer changes I can hear it clearly but in case you cannot here is an eq setting that will exemplify the frequencies that cause the ringing for me. It is most notable in the mf-fff range but I can hear it even at p.</p><p>Equalizer = [3514, 3515, 3860, 3861, 4420, 4421, 4461, 4462, 4623, 4624, 4697, 4698; -25, 0, 0, -25, -25, 0, 0, -25, -25, 0, 0, -25]</p><p>This will really bring out the offending noise. They are very high order harmonic frequencies.</p><p>If I use this eq setting then the ringing noise is pretty much gone. </p><p>Equalizer = [3514, 3515, 3860, 3861, 4420, 4421, 4461, 4462, 4623, 4624, 4697, 4698; 0, -25, -25, 0, 0, -25, -25, 0, 0, -25, -25, 0]</p><p>However, it&#039;s only for that one note. You still get these obnoxious very high overtones in the rest of the bass. Setting the cutoff and Q factor doesn&#039;t help since it kills the high notes and makes them too flat (in the timbre sense). </p><p>I only have the standard edition but I don&#039;t know if even in the pro edition you can control overtones that high.</p><p>What is most interesting is if you set the temperament back to equal the ringing is not as offensive (i.e., loud / noticeable). So this leads me to believe that the model has some harmonic resonance at whatever freq C1 is when set to well tempered. Or something. <i class="far fa-smile smiley"></i></p><p>I wish I knew what causes this and how to control it since this problem limits how much I can play the C3. <i class="far fa-frown smiley"></i></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Qberticus]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=1897</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-11-07T01:18:16Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=19018#p19018</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18666#p18666"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I can hear it too, and it&#039;s very annoying.&nbsp; Any solution to this problem yet?</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[benyig]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=2352</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-09-10T09:29:41Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18666#p18666</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18120#p18120"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I noticed this artifact a very long time ago as well, in exactly the same circumstance - softly played notes.&nbsp; I agree that it sounds very much like interpolation noise or aliasing.&nbsp; It is only in the attacks.</p><p>Greg.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[skip]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=353</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-14T03:57:11Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18120#p18120</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18099#p18099"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>what you describe seems to be a different phenomenon, as I my thing is in 5-6 kHz range and I hear it most when the keys are struck in ppp-p range. But I will check out if I can hear what you describe!</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[sebion]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=2160</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-13T08:33:20Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18099#p18099</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18095#p18095"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ve noticed this as well. It&#039;s there in equal temperament but when in well temperament or Tomas Young temperament it&#039;s a lot more pronounced. To me it&#039;s sort of like a ringing noise that phases back and forth and then dissipates. It&#039;s not quite as high pitched as a CRT TV/Monitor that&#039;s left on with a blank input signal but it&#039;s pretty close. </p><p>For me I can hear it in the&nbsp; A2-D3 range but it&#039;s primarily on C3 that I can hear it. It&#039;s there for about 750ms after the key is struck in the f-fff range. I think it&#039;s in the 2500-3000Hz range thought I can&#039;t be very sure about that.</p><p>I use Sennheiser HD 555 headphones as my primary output but I&#039;ve noticed this on other speakers as well.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Qberticus]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=1897</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-13T01:29:18Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18095#p18095</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18094#p18094"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Its definitely not created by my headphones, just boosted. I can&#039;t hear any artifacts on other non pianoteq recordings. But now that I found out where it lies in the frequency domain I can reduce it to an acceptable level while conserving the good sound of the C3.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[sebion]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=2160</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T23:54:15Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18094#p18094</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18093#p18093"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Oh I see... I was missing this info and of course pre-boosting the model by 25dB can generate a completely different sound than the normal C3, more like an electric piano. It is more or less like modifying the spectrum in this area. In that case, I can&#039;t hear that artifact with my headphones without this boost. Maybe it is created by your own headphones resonant frequency since almost nothing shows up in the non-boosted graph, or maybe you have better ears than mine <i class="far fa-smile smiley"></i></p><p>By soundcard effect I thought maybe a mismatch between the pianoteq parameters and the sound card ones that can sometimes be modified independently might also have an effect on the offline rendering that uses these parameters since the renderer might also talk to the sound card driver.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Gilles]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=657</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T23:24:36Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18093#p18093</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18091#p18091"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>@Gilles:<br />Thank you for analysing my file, but maybe we have a little misunderstanding here:<br />For the rendered mp3 i used another preset with extreme eq settings to make the phenomenon audible on any headphone or speaker, so I guess it is alway there but if you hear it or not depends on the frequency response of your amp+speaker configuration. On normal presets this artifact is very small I can&#039;t even hear it on most headphones.<br />And like I already said: I hear the artifact on any of my soundcards/computers. The mp3 I uploaded was of course &quot;offline&quot; rendered without any soundcard able to influence it. If you want to reproduce my mp3 you would have to check out this preset:<br /><a href="http://sebi.g3th.net/music/C3%20rattletest.fxp">http://sebi.g3th.net/music/C3%20rattletest.fxp</a><br />The preset has a velocity curve that forces you to play pianissimo notes only. This is the area where the artifact is best audible.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[sebion]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=2160</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T22:35:14Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18091#p18091</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18086#p18086"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>sebion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>@samplerate problem: <br />This is what I thought, too, but It doesn&#039;t change when you change the sample rate, except when you choose such a small sample rate that the noise cannot be covered anymore(sampling theorem). And like I said it is independent from the computer or soundcard. I tested it on several setups. The only difference is that depending on the frequency curve of your speakers it will sound very loud or it is hardly audible.<br />With extreme eq settings I can make it audible on any speaker system I have, but with &quot;normal&quot; pianoteq presets I hear it gently through my sony headphones(very bright sound, but other pianos sound really great on it) and so I didn&#039;t realize it before I got them.<br />Hope that makes it clear.</p></blockquote></div><p>When I listen to your demo, I can clearly hear the metallic artifact with my headphones, so this is not an headphone problem. When I play myself with your fxp and reset the Eq back to 0, I don&#039;t hear any artifact, the stock C3 worn out also sounds ok. So your problem has to be a sampling rate problem or bad response from your soundcard.</p><p>Here is a spectrum of a note from your file at the top, and the same one played by me at the bottom. The peaks circled in red centered around 7kHz is what we hear as an artifact, and none appear in my graph. This is a clear sign of aliasing. Not a C3 problem.</p><p><span class="postimg"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RLpO6zkr3cw/ThyvRAlQOfI/AAAAAAAAEF0/V00CJv7KqwQ/Aliasing.JPG" alt="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RLpO6zkr3cw/ThyvRAlQOfI/AAAAAAAAEF0/V00CJv7KqwQ/Aliasing.JPG" title="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RLpO6zkr3cw/ThyvRAlQOfI/AAAAAAAAEF0/V00CJv7KqwQ/Aliasing.JPG"/></span></p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Gilles]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=657</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T20:48:47Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18086#p18086</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18068#p18068"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>@samplerate problem: <br />This is what I thought, too, but It doesn&#039;t change when you change the sample rate, except when you choose such a small sample rate that the noise cannot be covered anymore(sampling theorem). And like I said it is independent from the computer or soundcard. I tested it on several setups. The only difference is that depending on the frequency curve of your speakers it will sound very loud or it is hardly audible.<br />With extreme eq settings I can make it audible on any speaker system I have, but with &quot;normal&quot; pianoteq presets I hear it gently through my sony headphones(very bright sound, but other pianos sound really great on it) and so I didn&#039;t realize it before I got them.<br />Hope that makes it clear.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[sebion]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=2160</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T09:33:56Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18068#p18068</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18067#p18067"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>For best performance, and because there are big differences between headphones, each headphone can require it&#039;s own EQ, and SONY are known for emphasizing high freqs more than other such as AKG which are rather soft in the upper range. Moreover, extreme EQ settings can produce an unusual sound, particularly with the very sharp Pianoteq EQ that works in pre-processing mode.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Philippe Guillaume]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=5</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T09:33:27Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18067#p18067</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18066#p18066"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it sounds like a sample rate problem.<br />I haven&#039;t heard anything like it on my own setup, but i will go and check it anyway.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[olepro]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=135</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T08:22:43Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18066#p18066</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18057#p18057"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>sebion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>just made a recording where I used extreme EQ settings to highlight the sound I am speaking of:<br /><a href="http://sebi.g3th.net/music/rattle%20c3%20demo.mp3">http://sebi.g3th.net/music/rattle%20c3%20demo.mp3</a></p><p>The first run is with the highlighted sound the second run is with the suppressed sound. I hope it will make clear what I hear.</p><p>@Rytmenpinne: I can try this on different headphones the sound is no distortion of my headphones since it doesn&#039;t depend on volume setting and if I add more gain to it i can hear it on other headphones/speakers too.</p></blockquote></div><p>This sounds like numerical aliasing, not distortion. There is a strong component around 8kHz in the first part of your file that is causing this. What internal and external sampling pianoteq rate are you using and what is your soundcard spec in this area?</p><p>C3 sounds fine in my setup with Grado SR80 headphones and Tascam US-122 soundcard.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[Gilles]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=657</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-12T00:22:42Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18057#p18057</id>
		</entry>
		<entry>
			<title type="html"><![CDATA[Re: C3 rattle sound]]></title>
			<link rel="alternate" href="https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18055#p18055"/>
			<content type="html"><![CDATA[<p>just made a recording where I used extreme EQ settings to highlight the sound I am speaking of:<br /><a href="http://sebi.g3th.net/music/rattle%20c3%20demo.mp3">http://sebi.g3th.net/music/rattle%20c3%20demo.mp3</a></p><p>The first run is with the highlighted sound the second run is with the suppressed sound. I hope it will make clear what I hear.</p><p>@Rytmenpinne: I can try this on different headphones the sound is no distortion of my headphones since it doesn&#039;t depend on volume setting and if I add more gain to it i can hear it on other headphones/speakers too.</p>]]></content>
			<author>
				<name><![CDATA[sebion]]></name>
				<uri>https://forum.modartt.com/profile.php?id=2160</uri>
			</author>
			<updated>2011-07-11T22:37:01Z</updated>
			<id>https://forum.modartt.com/viewtopic.php?pid=18055#p18055</id>
		</entry>
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