daniel_r328 wrote:

Was the Noire getting the same FX chain treatment as the Pianoteq examples?

It was (I think, I was doing this at a crazy time and half asleep) but I had to adjust the EQ for each one

I stopped using octaver for all, only enabled bark of dog at 64Hz

Oh just remembered. I stopped using adclip for all the latest ones and switched to a full mastering limiter.

For noire I use the tonal depth option and also increase the bass and the sub - it needs bass help less than Pianoteq

Ni recorded Noire bass notes using an inverted big speaker positioned  under the piano , so it contains natively  a kind of built in sub that can be enabled  or not . So maybe interesting  comparing noire without sub enabled  with your plugins vs standalone noire with sun enabled but without any additional bass enhancer . Combining the two together might be just too much .

dikrek wrote:

Pianistically wrote:

yes agree . Not sure it the Blüthner takes advantage of latest model introduced in the Steinway D , Shigeru and Bosie.   Also I think the hammer hardness specially for forte dynamics is too high for this particular piano.

here's the Debussy excerpt with lower Blüthner hammer hardness

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...softer.mp3

Rach 3-2 Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

NY D warm:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...d-warm.mp3

HB D (modified the classical recording preset, I think it's the best opening of all):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...cl-rec.mp3

280VC:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

SK-EX:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-sk-ex.mp3

And Noire for a sample piano reference:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-noire.mp3

That's very interesting. It shows how sound preference is a personal matter.   While I quite like the HB D , I prefer the Bosendorfer 280 VC , not based on the renditions you have produced , but I prefer the tonality of the Bosendorfer compared to Steinway.   The  Blüthner with softer hardness is not as pleasant as the 280 VC or Steinway , but paradoxically  it the closest to the sound of the piano Roll I have posted , which means that Pianoteq has been able to produce a convincing model of this piano.   
With respect to  Rach concerto 2 , Noire sounds very muddy and lacks clarity compared to any of the pianoteq examples.

Headphones matter a lot too, what sounds good to me on by balanced Sennheisers may sound totally different on the Final E3000 or AirPods.

It’s good to have the model choices for different styles, I still have a slot I haven’t activated. Waiting to see if Modartt finally releases an imperial and makes it a bundle with the 280

A realistic 2022 CFX emulation would be great though.

Was the Noire getting the same FX chain treatment as the Pianoteq examples?

It was (I think, I was doing this at a crazy time and half asleep) but I had to adjust the EQ for each one

I stopped using octaver for all, only enabled bark of dog at 64Hz

Oh just remembered. I stopped using adclip for all the latest ones and switched to a full mastering limiter.

For noire I use the tonal depth option and also increase the bass and the sub - it needs bass help less than Pianoteq.

I really was focusing on attack growliness

Pianistically wrote:

dikrek wrote:

First, Rach 2 with 280vc (you have the NY D furher up):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

Here are the Blüthner versions. First the excerpts for easy comparison:

Rach 2:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Debussy:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Now the full Debussy:

Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

NY D:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

I think the Blüthner bass is a bit weird.

yes agree . Not sure it the Blüthner takes advantage of latest model introduced in the Steinway D , Shigeru and Bosie.   Also I think the hammer hardness specially for forte dynamics is too high for this particular piano.

here's the Debussy excerpt with lower Blüthner hammer hardness

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...softer.mp3

Rach 3-2 Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

NY D warm:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...d-warm.mp3

HB D (modified the classical recording preset, I think it's the best opening of all):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...cl-rec.mp3

280VC:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

SK-EX:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-sk-ex.mp3

And Noire for a sample piano reference:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-noire.mp3

That's very interesting. It shows how sound preference is a personal matter.   While I quite like the HB D , I prefer the Bosendorfer 280 VC , not based on the renditions you have produced , but I prefer the tonality of the Bosendorfer compared to Steinway.   The  Blüthner with softer hardness is not as pleasant as the 280 VC or Steinway , but paradoxically  it the closest to the sound of the piano Roll I have posted , which means that Pianoteq has been able to produce a convincing model of this piano.   
With respect to  Rach concerto 2 , Noire sounds very muddy and lacks clarity compared to any of the pianoteq examples.

dikrek wrote:

Pianistically wrote:

looking fwd to it .

First, Rach 2 with 280vc (you have the NY D furher up):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

Here are the Blüthner versions. First the excerpts for easy comparison:

Rach 2:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Debussy:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Now the full Debussy:

Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

NY D:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

I think the Blüthner bass is a bit weird.

yes agree . Not sure it the Blüthner takes advantage of latest model introduced in the Steinway D , Shigeru and Bosie.   Also I think the hammer hardness specially for forte dynamics is too high for this particular piano.

here's the Debussy excerpt with lower Blüthner hammer hardness

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...softer.mp3

Rach 3-2 Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

NY D warm:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...d-warm.mp3

HB D (modified the classical recording preset, I think it's the best opening of all):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...cl-rec.mp3

280VC:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

SK-EX:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-sk-ex.mp3

And Noire for a sample piano reference:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-noire.mp3

dikrek wrote:

Pianistically wrote:

looking fwd to it .

First, Rach 2 with 280vc (you have the NY D furher up):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

Here are the Blüthner versions. First the excerpts for easy comparison:

Rach 2:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Debussy:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Now the full Debussy:

Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

NY D:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

I think the Blüthner bass is a bit weird.

yes agree . Not sure it the Blüthner takes advantage of latest model introduced in the Steinway D , Shigeru and Bosie.   Also I think the hammer hardness specially for forte dynamics is too high for this particular piano.

I haven’t been able to get the SK-EX to sound as good as the NY D or the 280VC - at least for these pieces.

Before PTQ 9, the D was never one of my favorites. Now I find it hugely improved.

I can try lower hammer hardness.

Pianistically wrote:

dikrek wrote:

When I get to my computer I’ll do both Rach 2 and this with Blüthner

looking fwd to it .

First, Rach 2 with 280vc (you have the NY D furher up):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

Here are the Blüthner versions. First the excerpts for easy comparison:

Rach 2:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Debussy:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Now the full Debussy:

Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

NY D:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

I think the Blüthner bass is a bit weird.

yes agree . Not sure it the Blüthner takes advantage of latest model introduced in the Steinway D , Shigeru and Bosie.   Also I think the hammer hardness specially for forte dynamics is too high for this particular piano.

dikrek wrote:

Pianistically wrote:

I understand. Now , it’s more about authenticity and composer’s intention . I have heard so many interpretations of this piece on YouTube , where the bass growls but the  middle register is just completely submerged by low frequencies. I guess It’s a matter of  fine balance between the two .

When I get to my computer I’ll do both Rach 2 and this with Blüthner

looking fwd to it .

First, Rach 2 with 280vc (you have the NY D furher up):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-280vc.mp3

Here are the Blüthner versions. First the excerpts for easy comparison:

Rach 2:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Debussy:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...ethner.mp3

Now the full Debussy:

Blüthner:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

NY D:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...-whole.mp3

I think the Blüthner bass is a bit weird.

Triryche wrote:

Curious, how are you feeding the resonance to Pianoteq?

I have my reverb module on an auxiliary track - the pianoteq track sends signal to the aux track (as well as master), and the aux track sends it back to the pianoteq track. The trick is to dial in a delay and/or allpass, as well as the send gain, for it to sound natural.

What I don't know is if the audio-in from Pianoteq participates in the same nonlinearities as the internal dry signal - ie. if the saturation points of the FDN become *more* saturated by the presence of additional sound. If they are processed separately, you wouldn't get true coupling. If they are processed together, you would.

@dikrek - loving the Rach set-ups, they sound lively and natural (as in not overproduced)!

Thanks for the explanation!!
I just started using Pianoteq, and I was like, "Wait, I can send a signal to the Pianoteqmodeling engine!!"

Pianistically wrote:

dikrek wrote:

Thanks. I’ll give it a shot but the Blüthner bass in Pianoteq doesn’t growl the way I like.

I understand. Now , it’s more about authenticity and composer’s intention . I have heard so many interpretations of this piece on YouTube , where the bass growls but the  middle register is just completely submerged by low frequencies. I guess It’s a matter of  fine balance between the two .

When I get to my computer I’ll do both Rach 2 and this with Blüthner

looking fwd to it .

dikrek wrote:

Pianistically wrote:

. It sounds very good ! 

Now,  it would be interesting to attempt to reproduce the original sound of the 'cathedral engloutie' as played originally by Claude Debussy himself.

Debussy composed the majority of his work on his 6'3" personal grand piano  Blüthner called 'style 8'  which had a fourth unstruck string for  all notes in the highest treble section which only vibrated sympathetically and produce a very specific sound in the higher register.
see:

Picture of the original Debussy style 8
https://artmuselondon.com/2025/04/01/pl...xperience/

This piano is kept in the Musée Labenche in Brive-la-Gaillarde, France.

Note that his  piano had only 2 pedals as at the time he composed  Sustenato was only implemented in a few pianos in America . Neither Debussy nor Ravel used sustenato pedal in their work, the control is all made with very precise half pedalling .
It is worth checking the pedal values in your midi file in Pianoteq midi monitor to make sure a continuous sustain pedal was used as many midi files found on line use on/off or  (0,64,127) values.

One of the main non initial apparent  difficulties with this piece is actually to get the middle register singing and the upper register very ethereal despite the growling bass .  It would be very interesting to render the midi file you have with  pianoteq Bluthner using artefacts you use for the bass register but tune the middle frequencies and play with sympathetic resonance for the section of the piece played in high register .  Note that the  Bluthner Model one modelled in pianioteq has a longer string length ( 9"2) and implements the specific 4 strings of the Bluthner special aliquot system .

Here is a rare recording of the piece played by Debussy himself on his Blüthner, made on a Welte-Mignon  roll system :
https://youtu.be/levGISzDmjs?si=Cs8DRD68YDqf-aYd

Keep doing your interesting attempts !

Thanks. I’ll give it a shot but the Blüthner bass in Pianoteq doesn’t growl the way I like.

I understand. Now , it’s more about authenticity and composer’s intention . I have heard so many interpretations of this piece on YouTube , where the bass growls but the  middle register is just completely submerged by low frequencies. I guess It’s a matter of  fine balance between the two .

When I get to my computer I’ll do both Rach 2 and this with Blüthner

Pianistically wrote:

dikrek wrote:

fixed the 280vc now (warm preset as the basis)

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

NY D: standard (named model) preset as the basis:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

HB D (used sombre as the basis):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

SK-EX: used the heroic preset as a a basis

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

I think in some ways Steinway and SK-EX are fairly close, the 280vc is the one that sounds different (and I think better) in this case. I'm also partial to the HB sombre. But it will depend on your playback devices too.

Thoughts?

Most of this is doable by free plugins like TDR nova, JS inflator, Bark of Dog.

. It sounds very good ! 

Now,  it would be interesting to attempt to reproduce the original sound of the 'cathedral engloutie' as played originally by Claude Debussy himself.

Debussy composed the majority of his work on his 6'3" personal grand piano  Blüthner called 'style 8'  which had a fourth unstruck string for  all notes in the highest treble section which only vibrated sympathetically and produce a very specific sound in the higher register.
see:

Picture of the original Debussy style 8
https://artmuselondon.com/2025/04/01/pl...xperience/

This piano is kept in the Musée Labenche in Brive-la-Gaillarde, France.

Note that his  piano had only 2 pedals as at the time he composed  Sustenato was only implemented in a few pianos in America . Neither Debussy nor Ravel used sustenato pedal in their work, the control is all made with very precise half pedalling .
It is worth checking the pedal values in your midi file in Pianoteq midi monitor to make sure a continuous sustain pedal was used as many midi files found on line use on/off or  (0,64,127) values.

One of the main non initial apparent  difficulties with this piece is actually to get the middle register singing and the upper register very ethereal despite the growling bass .  It would be very interesting to render the midi file you have with  pianoteq Bluthner using artefacts you use for the bass register but tune the middle frequencies and play with sympathetic resonance for the section of the piece played in high register .  Note that the  Bluthner Model one modelled in pianioteq has a longer string length ( 9"2) and implements the specific 4 strings of the Bluthner special aliquot system .

Here is a rare recording of the piece played by Debussy himself on his Blüthner, made on a Welte-Mignon  roll system :
https://youtu.be/levGISzDmjs?si=Cs8DRD68YDqf-aYd

Keep doing your interesting attempts !

Thanks. I’ll give it a shot but the Blüthner bass in Pianoteq doesn’t growl the way I like.

I understand. Now , it’s more about authenticity and composer’s intention . I have heard so many interpretations of this piece on YouTube , where the bass growls but the  middle register is just completely submerged by low frequencies. I guess It’s a matter of  fine balance between the two .

dikrek wrote:

fixed the 280vc now (warm preset as the basis)

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

NY D: standard (named model) preset as the basis:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

HB D (used sombre as the basis):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

SK-EX: used the heroic preset as a a basis

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

I think in some ways Steinway and SK-EX are fairly close, the 280vc is the one that sounds different (and I think better) in this case. I'm also partial to the HB sombre. But it will depend on your playback devices too.

Thoughts?

Most of this is doable by free plugins like TDR nova, JS inflator, Bark of Dog.

. It sounds very good ! 

Now,  it would be interesting to attempt to reproduce the original sound of the 'cathedral engloutie' as played originally by Claude Debussy himself.

Debussy composed the majority of his work on his 6'3" personal grand piano  Blüthner called 'style 8'  which had a fourth unstruck string for  all notes in the highest treble section which only vibrated sympathetically and produce a very specific sound in the higher register.
see:

Picture of the original Debussy style 8
https://artmuselondon.com/2025/04/01/pl...xperience/

This piano is kept in the Musée Labenche in Brive-la-Gaillarde, France.

Note that his  piano had only 2 pedals as at the time he composed  Sustenato was only implemented in a few pianos in America . Neither Debussy nor Ravel used sustenato pedal in their work, the control is all made with very precise half pedalling .
It is worth checking the pedal values in your midi file in Pianoteq midi monitor to make sure a continuous sustain pedal was used as many midi files found on line use on/off or  (0,64,127) values.

One of the main non initial apparent  difficulties with this piece is actually to get the middle register singing and the upper register very ethereal despite the growling bass .  It would be very interesting to render the midi file you have with  pianoteq Bluthner using artefacts you use for the bass register but tune the middle frequencies and play with sympathetic resonance for the section of the piece played in high register .  Note that the  Bluthner Model one modelled in pianioteq has a longer string length ( 9"2) and implements the specific 4 strings of the Bluthner special aliquot system .

Here is a rare recording of the piece played by Debussy himself on his Blüthner, made on a Welte-Mignon  roll system :
https://youtu.be/levGISzDmjs?si=Cs8DRD68YDqf-aYd

Keep doing your interesting attempts !

Thanks. I’ll give it a shot but the Blüthner bass in Pianoteq doesn’t growl the way I like.

fixed the 280vc now (warm preset as the basis)

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

NY D: standard (named model) preset as the basis:

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

HB D (used sombre as the basis):

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

SK-EX: used the heroic preset as a a basis

https://pianoclack.s3.us-east-1.amazona...va-new.mp3

I think in some ways Steinway and SK-EX are fairly close, the 280vc is the one that sounds different (and I think better) in this case. I'm also partial to the HB sombre. But it will depend on your playback devices too.

Thoughts?

Most of this is doable by free plugins like TDR nova, JS inflator, Bark of Dog.

. It sounds very good ! 

Now,  it would be interesting to attempt to reproduce the original sound of the 'cathedral engloutie' as played originally by Claude Debussy himself.

Debussy composed the majority of his work on his 6'3" personal grand piano  Blüthner called 'style 8'  which had a fourth unstruck string for  all notes in the highest treble section which only vibrated sympathetically and produce a very specific sound in the higher register.
see:

Picture of the original Debussy style 8
https://artmuselondon.com/2025/04/01/pl...xperience/

This piano is kept in the Musée Labenche in Brive-la-Gaillarde, France.

Note that his  piano had only 2 pedals as at the time Debussy composed  his work, sustenato pedal was only implemented in a few pianos in America . Neither Debussy nor Ravel used sustenato pedal in their work, all the control was made with very precise half pedalling .
It is worth checking the pedal values in your midi file in Pianoteq midi monitor to make sure a continuous sustain pedal was used as many midi files found on line use on/off or  (0,64,127) values.

One of the main non initial apparent  difficulties with this piece is actually to get the middle register singing and the upper register very ethereal despite the growling bass .  It would be very interesting to render the midi file you have with  pianoteq Bluthner using artefacts you use for the bass register but tune the middle frequencies and play with sympathetic resonance for the section of the piece played in high register .  Note that the  Bluthner Model one modelled in pianioteq has a longer string length ( 9"2)  but implements the specific 4 strings of the Bluthner special aliquot system !

Here is a rare recording of the piece played by Debussy himself on his Blüthner, made on a Welte-Mignon  roll system :
https://youtu.be/levGISzDmjs?si=Cs8DRD68YDqf-aYd

Keep doing your interesting attempts !