Pianophile wrote:

As far as I'm concerned, the difference is significant enough to include a comment on it in the Pianoteq manual. Something along the lines of: for maximum player realism, especially for classical pieces, try increasing the dynamic range to 45+ dB, but bear in mind that this requires powerful speakers with plenty of headroom?

Good suggestion, thank you Pianophile!
Personnally when playing, I also adjust the dynamics depending on the type of music.

You're very welcome! It's what I do too, with 47-50 dB for classical, 30-ish for pop, and something inbetween for jazz.

As far as I'm concerned, the difference is significant enough to include a comment on it in the Pianoteq manual. Something along the lines of: for maximum player realism, especially for classical pieces, try increasing the dynamic range to 45+ dB, but bear in mind that this requires powerful speakers with plenty of headroom?

Good suggestion, thank you Pianophile!
Personnally when playing, I also adjust the dynamics depending on the type of music.

daniel_r328 wrote:

My guess is going to be that they're trying to thread the needle between an authentic reproduction of an instrument vs. the reproduction of a recording. Speakers have a limited dynamic range so need some compression to represent the full range of dynamics correctly.

Decibel-matching, while technically correct, sounds weird in practice. E.g. in a classical orchestra recording, the audio engineer would increase the gain on pianissimo sections. Similar to how in a movie an indoor vs outdoor scene are closer in brightness than they would be in real life: your eyes can adapt to a wide range in brightness in the real world, but struggles to do the same on a screen.

So the trade-offs as I imagine them are audience vs player verisimilitude and trying to fit the widest range of speaker set ups. Just as a comparison point, the default dynamic range sounds excellent through my speakers.

But maybe someone from Modartt can expand so that we don't have to speculate

I couldn't have said it better

That makes a lot of sense.

I do feel that with a wider dynamic range, the sound opens up a bit and breathes a bit more, mainly (perhaps exclusively?) in the pianissimo range. With a range of 40 dB, pp notes don't just sound louder, but have a slightly different timbre. It's subtle but noticeable. Increasing the range to 47 dB adds significantly to the playing experience, enabling me, for example, to play the left hand accompaniment in a Mozart piece as delicately as on a real grand, or to explore dynamic nuances in a Debussy piece in a way that is not quite possible with 40 dB. I have very good speakers that comfortably accommodate a wide dynamic range.

You do indeed end up with a recording that has too wide a dynamic range for most listening situations (and probably quite a few playing experiences, depending on the quality of the speakers you're using). I address this problem with a little fader riding, and just a bit of compression and limiting outside Pianoteq. In this way, I preserve the dynamic range, with its timbral nuances, at the source. I should perhaps add that I mainly use the Shigeru Ryuyo preset, with an external reverb. With the increased dynamic range and a really good MIDI controller, it makes for an amazing playing experience.

As far as I'm concerned, the difference is significant enough to include a comment on it in the Pianoteq manual. Something along the lines of: for maximum player realism, especially for classical pieces, try increasing the dynamic range to 45+ dB, but bear in mind that this requires powerful speakers with plenty of headroom?

My guess is going to be that they're trying to thread the needle between an authentic reproduction of an instrument vs. the reproduction of a recording. Speakers have a limited dynamic range so need some compression to represent the full range of dynamics correctly.

Decibel-matching, while technically correct, sounds weird in practice. E.g. in a classical orchestra recording, the audio engineer would increase the gain on pianissimo sections. Similar to how in a movie an indoor vs outdoor scene are closer in brightness than they would be in real life: your eyes can adapt to a wide range in brightness in the real world, but struggles to do the same on a screen.

So the trade-offs as I imagine them are audience vs player verisimilitude and trying to fit the widest range of speaker set ups. Just as a comparison point, the default dynamic range sounds excellent through my speakers.

But maybe someone from Modartt can expand so that we don't have to speculate

I couldn't have said it better

My guess is going to be that they're trying to thread the needle between an authentic reproduction of an instrument vs. the reproduction of a recording. Speakers have a limited dynamic range so need some compression to represent the full range of dynamics correctly.

Decibel-matching, while technically correct, sounds weird in practice. E.g. in a classical orchestra recording, the audio engineer would increase the gain on pianissimo sections. Similar to how in a movie an indoor vs outdoor scene are closer in brightness than they would be in real life: your eyes can adapt to a wide range in brightness in the real world, but struggles to do the same on a screen.

So the trade-offs as I imagine them are audience vs player verisimilitude and trying to fit the widest range of speaker set ups. Just as a comparison point, the default dynamic range sounds excellent through my speakers.

But maybe someone from Modartt can expand so that we don't have to speculate

The other issue is keyboard controllers - some presets may err on the side of caution because of this.

I often increase mine to about 45.

Decibel-matching, while technically correct, sounds weird in practice. E.g. in a classical orchestra recording, the audio engineer would increase the gain on pianissimo sections. Similar to how in a movie an indoor vs outdoor scene are closer in brightness than they would be in real life: your eyes can adapt to a wide range in brightness in the real world, but struggles to do the same on a screen.

So the trade-offs as I imagine them are audience vs player verisimilitude and trying to fit the widest range of speaker set ups. Just as a comparison point, the default dynamic range sounds excellent through my speakers.

But maybe someone from Modartt can expand so that we don't have to speculate

Is it not enough to move the slider? Do you mean presets fully optimised for this?

Moving the slider works, of course, but why not have standard presets with a high dynamic range? After all, this differs for different kinds of presets; pop piano presets typically have a much lower dynamic range. It seems a missed opportunity not to showcase the effects of a large dynamic range by means of presets.

I've found that increasing the dynamic range for the Shigeru Kawai  to 47-50 dB really benefits its overall sound and realism, and further enhances the playing experience. Not only does it make possible more nuances in pianissimo but the pianissimos also sound more delicate and airy, and noticeably less 'congested' than with the default 40 dB dynamic range. Soft chords, too, sound better -- more transparent as it were -- with a larger dynamic range.

To me, it's really as though a wider dynamic range reveals certain aspects of Pianoteq's modelling that remain a bit hidden with the 40 dB setting. It has made me realize that Pianoteq is even better than I thought.

Would it be an idea to include standard presets with a 47-50 dB dynamic range for all grand piano models? The Steinways have 45 dB presets but the default dynamic range for the grand pianos seems to be around 40 dB.

Is it not enough to move the slider? Do you mean presets fully optimised for this?

To me, it's really as though a wider dynamic range reveals certain aspects of Pianoteq's modelling that remain a bit hidden with the 40 dB setting. It has made me realize that Pianoteq is even better than I thought.

Would it be an idea to include standard presets with a 47-50 dB dynamic range for all grand piano models? The Steinways have 45 dB presets but the default dynamic range for the grand pianos seems to be around 40 dB.