Not to dissuade you from your preference but I thought it could be interesting to you to hear my musings what I appreciate about the first sample that gives it the edge for me.

Yes, thanks for listening and for the feedback. Your impressions are well articulated and capture the differences, strengths and weaknesses well; I hear much the same thing.

The pianoteq version is certainly clearer, but it does sound "oddly recorded and anechoic, making it a bit bland and mono-sounding" to my ear. All the pianos started out dry in terms of reverb and were processed with the same FX and then loudness-matched. But being sample-based, the RD sound might already have some inherent 'ambience' that makes it sound more 'spacious' with reverb, but I think some of that is due to the RD having an inherently more 'sterophonic' image as well. And layering the two pianos with the unavoidable and slightly variable delay between them automatically introduces even more 'ambience' and a more lively stereo image. So in fairness, I should probably raise the reverb level and modify damping and other setting for the Pianoteq-only recording to get a more comparable sense of space with a wider image. But the intent was more to compare things as they come 'out of the box'.

I also agree with your thoughts about resonances being layered but not interacting with eachother and tending to sound muddy as a result. My primary goal was to get a sound and response that I enjoy playing, but it might not be the best thing for recording. I think I mentioned that the piece was originally recorded with the RD only and that I would have used a lighter touch on both the keys and the sustain pedal if I were to re-record with the layered setup. Related to this, I hear some unusually/unpleasantly quickly-damped notes in the Pianoteq-only version which might be due to the default 127-127 flatline Note Off Velocity curve that Pianoteq ships with. At some point I changed that to 0-127. The RD transmits Note Off Veslocity, but Sonar doesn't record it and sends a fixed velocity of 64 which the 0-127 curve allows to pass unmolested, giving a more reasonable damping reponse for my playing style.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...B%20FX.mp3

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...B%20FX.mp3

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...B%20FX.mp3

Thanks for linking these through from another thread!

Just as a data point, I was listening to these blind and immediately preferred the pianoteq-only version. Not to dissuade you from your preference but I thought it could be interesting to you to hear my musings what I appreciate about the first sample that gives it the edge for me. (I don't know if I am a pianoteq fan because I favour the sound, or I favour the sound because I'm a pianoteq fan; but the blind test gives me some hope that it's the former)

The main thing is that all the resonances (including any inharmonicities) interact naturally with each other; in the other versions, there are resonances that overlap without influencing one another, which to my ear sounds muddy. I have an easier time following the musical throughline in the first version.

I feel that some musical effects (the accented treble notes) don't come through as well in the first version as they do in the others... the velocity curve (and high velocity hammer hardness) is more successful in the RD-based versions. The ambient (ie. room) resonances are also more convincing on the RD model. In comparison, the pianoteq version sounds too even and flat.

However, in my mind this doesn't register as artificial or synthetic, but as a suboptimal recording choice - as in, my brain doesn't flag the sounds it hears as fake or uncanny, but as oddly recorded and anechoic, making it a bit bland and mono-sounding. Conversely, the way the individual sounds overlapped in the other samples did register as artificial to me.

What occurs to me is that the RD-based versions are nicer and fuller, acoustically, and more expressive dynamically. But musically, what came through in the pianoteq version was clearer and more expressive to my very subjective ear. I felt that was worth sharing because in playing and listening there are aspects that I care about very deeply (resonance interactions, musical dynamics), and aspects that I found myself care not as much about as others (mastering, dynamic range, bass presence, etc). So maybe the different view points help us look at these comparisons with nuance: there are lots of variables and maybe mapping it all to a single quality scale (this sounds better/that sounds worse) is reductive.

TRACK 1 :
Pianoteq -> PREAMP "VLC" (mood of the day, on or off) -> EQ - Musical Borad Band "Pulsar W945" (little Cut at somewhere between 500Hz - 1400Khz it depends on the Piano Model i chosse) -> COMPRESSOR "MagicDeathEye" atm (Tighter ones like V-COMP / ZENER for Spank or VARIMU for warm gooey, choose which you like i find these sound the best ymmv ofc)

TRACK 1: SEND -> -12db to REVERB RETURN TRACK: "TC Electronics T6000 VSS4HD" - Room or Hall depending on the mood

MASTER BUS:
Pulsar P445 Sidecar - NO Compression but Transformer + Lineamp <3

Thanks for these suggestions.  Would you be willing/able to share your setting used on MagicDeathEye and P445 or heck all of them as an example?

TRACK 1 :
Pianoteq -> PREAMP "VLC" (mood of the day, on or off) -> EQ - Musical Borad Band "Pulsar W945" (little Cut at somewhere between 500Hz - 1400Khz it depends on the Piano Model i chosse) -> COMPRESSOR "MagicDeathEye" atm (Tighter ones like V-COMP / ZENER for Spank or VARIMU for warm gooey, choose which you like i find these sound the best ymmv ofc)

TRACK 1: SEND -> -12db to REVERB RETURN TRACK: "TC Electronics T6000 VSS4HD" - Room or Hall depending on the mood

MASTER BUS:
Pulsar P445 Sidecar - NO Compression but Transformer + Lineamp <3

*** Before i had this setup, i tried everything …

This is great info - thanks for sharing, we can see that you’re a busy, busy man with lots on your mind at the moment. I wish you strength and courage !

On a lighter note the last time I cried at the piano was due to too many wrong notes

I looked at VLC but didn’t get it because of iLock - but that’s a whole other story!

JohnnyRayJr wrote:

YO Dez, CHECK THIS OUT ASAP

MIXWAVE - Hazlerigg VLC - Preamp

there is a demo, install and run piano teq through.......tears were running down while playing loud this morning, no joke, it makes incredible harmonics, eq, flavour, etc nothing has done yet!!!

Run Pianoteq into the PRE then int a COMP / LIMITER of your choice......its better than every plugin combination i have listet you and tested the last month!!!

Im running it into Arturia - Sta Tube Comp or the KIIVE VComp, which both are my favourite Piano Comps now, the STA Compressors from the 50s are exceptional for lil limitting and peak cutting in such a nice way, so musical, everything sounds more like recodings after these....ill upload demos when i get back home next week!!! Peace

How would you compare it to Silver Bullet or the P455 sidecar? Or NFuse? Or the various Sonimus consoles like T-Console?

Lots of ways to impart mojo.

Hey yall, sooo...

They all are different.

Yep, lots of ways to impart mojo, and i have tried like A LOT (i basicly have almost all of the mojo plugins one can think of, collectiing since 2008 lol)

First of all, the Sonimus Consoles, i have them all, are better for mixing/Mastering than tracking / playing, IMHO, cuz as soon as they start to add Saturation it gets muddy / low mid thick fast, and that can literally be like 1.5db too hot into it, and that was always an balance act, so i ditched those.

I tried so many combinations, or recreations of studios/rigs/albums, different Saturators, Tapes, Pres, etc (NFuse, Kelvin so on and so forth) and for me the magic recipe went like this in the end:

TRACK 1 :
Pianoteq -> PREAMP "VLC" (mood of the day, on or off) -> EQ - Musical Borad Band "Pulsar W945" (little Cut at somewhere between 500Hz - 1400Khz it depends on the Piano Model i chosse) -> COMPRESSOR "MagicDeathEye" atm (Tighter ones like V-COMP / ZENER for Spank or VARIMU for warm gooey, choose which you like i find these sound the best ymmv ofc)

TRACK 1: SEND -> -12db to REVERB RETURN TRACK: "TC Electronics T6000 VSS4HD" - Room or Hall depending on the mood

MASTER BUS:
Pulsar P445 Sidecar - NO Compression but Transformer + Lineamp <3

*** Before i had this setup, i tried everything on the master for slight final "glue/mojo" with everything you can think of, Nfuse, Kelvin, Michelangelo, True Iron, Shadowhills you name it, but nothing does what the Sidecar does, the different flavours of mojo one can get with the transfomers and lineamp PLUS some kind of depth or 3d effect even wihtout using its API EQ or Compressor is unbelivable, 1st plugin that really has this effect, if one could only get 1 plugin GET THIS, makes everything just better.

The Preamp is basicly optional and related to what tone you are going for, to best describe it, when its dialed in heavier you get tones in the ballpark of late live Bill Evans Stuff  like "1980 Molde Jazz Cinema" gig or late Paris stuff -> more bite, tighter but NOT shrill OR when its dialed in smoother you get something like "Bill Evans - Spartacus Love theme into Nardis 8min version" from the solo piano sessions....its actually crazy what the VLC can do dialied in right.

And i i know this sounds like a lot of mumbojumbo, but to be totally honest, this setup brought me from Goosebumps while playing Pianoteq to really tearing up at the right moments, all the extra harmonics and mojo, slight compression plus the reverb like if you are IN the studio room or a jazz club or a Theather or Concert Hall makes for an incredible playing experience. YMMV OFC.

I only had this from listening to certain tunes that really hit hard emotionaly but never from playing myself...

I see that i upload some snippets, im drowning in work and personal stuff atm.

PS: Pianoteq itself has the Limiter OFF and NO FX at all turned on.

dikrek wrote:

JohnnyRayJr wrote:

MIXWAVE - Hazlerigg VLC - Preamp

How would you compare it to Silver Bullet or the P455 sidecar? Or NFuse? Or the various Sonimus consoles like T-Console?

Hi dikrek, thanks for popping in.

We'd like to know what you think of the various options you list above? Especially how you think each might enhance a particular musical genre or make a certain track pop.

Hope to read you soon

I like T-Console and Silver Bullet but haven’t tried VLC…

JohnnyRayJr wrote:

MIXWAVE - Hazlerigg VLC - Preamp

How would you compare it to Silver Bullet or the P455 sidecar? Or NFuse? Or the various Sonimus consoles like T-Console?

Hi dikrek, thanks for popping in.

We'd like to know what you think of the various options you list above? Especially how you think each might enhance a particular musical genre or make a certain track pop.

Hope to read you soon

YO Dez, CHECK THIS OUT ASAP

MIXWAVE - Hazlerigg VLC - Preamp

there is a demo, install and run piano teq through.......tears were running down while playing loud this morning, no joke, it makes incredible harmonics, eq, flavour, etc nothing has done yet!!!

Run Pianoteq into the PRE then int a COMP / LIMITER of your choice......its better than every plugin combination i have listet you and tested the last month!!!

Im running it into Arturia - Sta Tube Comp or the KIIVE VComp, which both are my favourite Piano Comps now, the STA Compressors from the 50s are exceptional for lil limitting and peak cutting in such a nice way, so musical, everything sounds more like recodings after these....ill upload demos when i get back home next week!!! Peace

How would you compare it to Silver Bullet or the P455 sidecar? Or NFuse? Or the various Sonimus consoles like T-Console?

Lots of ways to impart mojo.

MIXWAVE - Hazlerigg VLC - Preamp

Run Pianoteq into the PRE then int a COMP / LIMITER of your choice......its better than every plugin combination i have listet you and tested the last

Thanks for the heads-up, I’ll be sure to check it out!!! You certainly make it sound like a dream VST…

MIXWAVE - Hazlerigg VLC - Preamp

there is a demo, install and run piano teq through.......tears were running down while playing loud this morning, no joke, it makes incredible harmonics, eq, flavour, etc nothing has done yet!!!

Run Pianoteq into the PRE then int a COMP / LIMITER of your choice......its better than every plugin combination i have listet you and tested the last month!!!

Im running it into Arturia - Sta Tube Comp or the KIIVE VComp, which both are my favourite Piano Comps now, the STA Compressors from the 50s are exceptional for lil limitting and peak cutting in such a nice way, so musical, everything sounds more like recodings after these....ill upload demos when i get back home next week!!! Peace

Thanks for participating and sharing your talent with us !

Thanks for listening. In a perfect workld, to get the most equitable comparison it would be best to re-record the MIDI with each piano individually tweaked and processed to suit. The MIDI for this was originally recorded using the RD-700 alone. If re-recording it for Pianoteq I would probably play with a lighter touch on the keys and with the layered setup a lighter touch on the pedal.

Here you go.

These are great !

Nice to hear the comparison and see for myself how well you've managed to blend the two together successfully. You say you will tweak them now that you've revisited them - always the way... out tastes change hour by hour...

Thanks for participating and sharing your talent with us !

brundlefly wrote:

I should post comparison recordings of the RD-700 alone, Pianoteq alone and the layered version, and see what you think

I would love the hear the comparisons when you get a chance!

Here you go. I didn't try concealing which is which because I thought it was pretty obvious. All have their strong and weak points, and hearing them all back-to-back gave me ideas for improving the layered setup. I might do another set with a more sparse composition where the complexity of the layered version really shines on individual notes. If you have some MIDI you'd like me to render with the layered setup to better judge it, let me know.

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...B%20FX.mp3

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...B%20FX.mp3

https://forum.modartt.com/uploads.php?f...B%20FX.mp3

I should post comparison recordings of the RD-700 alone, Pianoteq alone and the layered version, and see what you think

I would love the hear the comparisons when you get a chance!

I've only ever read the occasional SoS article availabe online without a subsription. Back in the day I was a voracious consumer of paper magazines of all types including Keyboard and Electronic Musician. I don't read or watch anything online that consistently. There are a handful of Youtube channels that I follow somewhat regularly. Rick Beato's "Everything Music" is at the top of my list for music-related content, but it's not technology-oriented.

I'm much the same as you, I used to read thick glossy magazines on Cameras, Instruments, PCs - but no longer. I also enjoy Rick Beato's channel from time to time.