...still something missing...

I thought that the preset from CREART was it. It seems to be on my HiFi speakers. But on my studio monitor, there is still something that I miss.

Maybe my studio monitors are less flattering (or more revealing) than my Hi-FI speakers (That's what they are meant for after all)

But I have A/Bed again a lot this morning between PT and TP and I still feel that, even with that "intimate" preset, the initial sound (The initial string sound excluding teh hammer itself) of Pianoteq is too "empty" "metallic" compared to TruePianos (Diamond, Jazz) preset.

To get a "good" reference point I sat in front of my piano (Boston Upright 126), and ... ok there is decidedly no comparison between sitting in front of a decent piano and any of those models. But, besides all other considerations, the initial sound has more "body" (TP-style).

Regards,

Marc.

I recognize this, I was also surprised that the sustain pedal sound was so good but the basic piano sound, esp. the attack is lacking. I think in the first few millseconds that the hammer strikes the string there's something hard to model or computationally too intensive going on...

So you went 'Downtown'?   From that era, Dusty Springfield was, and still is my favorite, although she's no longer with us.

Cheers,
Michael

I've just come back from a Petula Clark concert, which was absolutely wonderful. 

Besides Petula herself, the piano sound was excellent. I noticed something very interesting - they had what appeared to be a sound shield around the drummer. It was a tall, transparent shield. It was obviously to prevent bleeding into the piano mics. (and I am confident the piano was mic'd - it sounded a bit too loud and clear for it not to have been).  I could not see the piano mics, but I could see the drum mics - they were mounted quite high, above the shield.  I don't go to concerts often at all, so I'm not sure how commonly this idea is used.  The overall sound was really top notch.

Greg.

I am still using the demo for now. did you do something that would prevent me to load it?

KR,

Marc.

(I think under 30secs we're in the clear and I played it myself)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...mate04.fxp
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...=sorry.mid
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...=sorry.mp3

To get a "good" reference point I sat in front of my piano (Boston Upright 126), and ... ok there is decidedly no comparison between sitting in front of a decent piano and any of those models. But, besides all other considerations, the initial sound has more "body" (TP-style).

Regards,

Marc.

I doubt that any electronic reproduction/recording/emulation will ever produce the same sound as the real thing.

Aside from any weaknesses in the electronic signal chain, I doubt that any speaker system can stand up to the tonal accuracy of a good piano soundboard.

I've put good piano CD recordings through my DAW, and the sound doesn't even stand up to Pianoteq - and they're both using the same electronics to produce the sound (with the exception that the CD has been highly processed already).

Recording a piano with microphones is a very difficult job in itself with many variables that affect the outcome.  Some of the inaccuracy may be corrected by post-processing, but it's not perfect.

I'm starting to doubt the accuracy of sample sets (Synthogy, etc) in reproducing piano sound simply because a recorded piano cannot sound like the original sound that the pianist hears.

Glenn

I will go and try and get a bit closer to the sound of the recordings that you linked to - I don't give up that easily

cheers
Hans

I thought that the preset from CREART was it. It seems to be on my HiFi speakers. But on my studio monitor, there is still something that I miss.

Maybe my studio monitors are less flattering (or more revealing) than my Hi-FI speakers (That's what they are meant for after all)

But I have A/Bed again a lot this morning between PT and TP and I still feel that, even with that "intimate" preset, the initial sound (The initial string sound excluding teh hammer itself) of Pianoteq is too "empty" "metallic" compared to TruePianos (Diamond, Jazz) preset.

To get a "good" reference point I sat in front of my piano (Boston Upright 126), and ... ok there is decidedly no comparison between sitting in front of a decent piano and any of those models. But, besides all other considerations, the initial sound has more "body" (TP-style).

Regards,

Marc.

Cool
Yes, microphone placement does a great deal to the sound as it would in a real situation - sometimes I have the feeling that PTs mics respond even stronger than real ones but in any case there's a lot to be done by just fiddling about with the mics without doing anything else - although ofcourse hammer hardness also helped here...

cheers
Hans

Well Hans, I think you're onto something - microphone placement is critical - that's been apparent for quite a while to both of us (do you think anyone else will pick up on this ).

I DL'd your "five microphones under the lid" fxp, and I really like it.  To my old ears, it is somewhat similar to my "two mics" setup.  The five mics add quite a bit of what I might call "depth" to the sound - it's a more complex sound than with two mics.  On the other hand, two mics is perhaps "cleaner" or sparer.  I did my comparison by turning off limiter and reverb.

The bottom line is that we have a lot to learn about the mics and your latest experiment will lead us to new ways to manipulate the sound.

Thanks for posting  your ideas - well worthwhile.

Glenn

PS - the Helpinstill technology has been around for quite a while.  It was discussed several years ago on the PG Music forum.  The only potential drawback is that it might pick up too much string sound and not enough soundboard sound - string sound by nature is metallic (it can't help but be), and soundboard sound should probably sound more "wooden".

The Helpinstill ad reads, ". . it senses string movements magnetically at the speed of light to produce a signal".  If this is true, it can't possibly pick up soundboard movement.

My previously mentioned analogy of the hard body guitar vs the acoustic guitar must also apply to the nature of piano sound.  When the string vibrations are transferred to the soundboard, it is inevitable that the wood will emphasize some frequencies and lessen others.  Wood has very different physical properties which affect the timbre (compare a vibraphone to a marimba).

G

The bass notes sometimes sound a bit like a CP70/80 electric grand.  There was a demo recording on the Helpinstill web site of a "sampled Helpinstill" product a while ago, which sounded even more like an electric grand than this recording. (there doesn't seem to be any mention of this product there now)

Also, there is some discussion about the Helpinstill on the Northern Sounds forum, here:
http://northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30704
and also here:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.p...msg_426291
Seems that even when using the pickup, a bit of mic sound was often blended in, to make the sound more natural.

Greg.

Hey, I am even more amazed now that I played with it and looked at the settings.

It sounds quite exactly like I wanted.

Furthermore it plays really nicely. It keeps the dynamic qualities of Pianoteq while giving a sound that is closer to what (I think) some people prefer on some TruePianos presets. That really closes the discussion for me. I think Pianoteq should include your preset as a demo. It would reassure people that find PT too bright and metallic.

Now I was also amazed at the setting that you have used! I was expecting to see some EQ to cut off the high frequency. But you did just the opposite. That seems to mean that the key change is the mic position indeed.

Regards,

Marc for Azure Feast.

Hello All,

Each week, I grow more amazed at the flexibility of the Pianoteq physically modeled piano, and how it responds essentially exactly as its "real" conterpart.  Many, many kudos to Philippe and his programming team.

Until last night, I didn't know anything about the Helpinstill technology.  Rather, I went to Youtube and noticed that, despite, various artists' piano lids being (mainly) closed, partially open, or completely removed, the pianos' sounds were nearly the same. 

The above observations got me thinking:  "I do not see any conventional microphones positioned in, under or around the piano case, and it must be impossible that the singer's microphone is picking up the piano's sound."

A quick Google search of "piano microphone" led me to two sources, of which one was the Helpinstill product.  It was a cinch, once I watched the video and later read that Elton John, Billy Joel, Barry Manilow and others have used this technology for decades.

It is absolutely stunning that the Pianoteq responds to five microphones placed very closely to the strings, around the inside of the piano, and is able to capture a type of sound that has otherwise remained elusive to more conventional microphone setups.

Glad to be of help. 

Joe

I've made a test fxp with all mics under the lid (lid half opened) to see if a recording technique like Joe described would be possible...
I had to put up the reverb to keep the sound 'alive' a bit... ( i wanted it to play in the standalone version)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...mate01.fxp

what do you think?

cheers
Hans

Nice mic settings and sound. But LOUD on the first midi file I tried it with.  I like the control it gives, too: turning any mic off gives a new similar sound. I'd tried putting mics along the harp before, but I never got this good a sound--never occurred to me lay down five mics that way. Seriously good.

cheers
Hans