Pianoteq technology can split sound in channels for each piano component, while sampled pianos can't that easy. Modartt could create a channel for soundboard, and a channel for piano cabinet and even one for the keybed vibrations. They can also create a channel for some speakers, required for some metal tones of the harp and deep trebble, as well one for the acoustic sound which the strings produces direct to the air.

I would even go beyond, if I was a piano manufacturer. I would invite Modartt and together tfy to design some sort of metal harp to be used with transducer, taking advantage of Modartt ability to create a channel just for it.

It's been several years since I've played one, and I didn't play any extensively, but I would say the effect was far better than nothing. Could it have been improved? No doubt. But only having experience with real pianos and standard keyboards, it was a very nice improvement on the latter. It also did react to volume and frequency, being much more pronounced in the bass, less so as you moved up, and stronger at greater dynamics/bigger chords. Was the speed of the vibration faster depending on the pitch being played? Possibly not, but I imagine that wouldn't be too difficult to implement.

On N3X, I rememberd they used a very small soundboard and transducer behind the keyboard to simulat vibration, so the effects are weak than other bigger soundboard on DPs I mentioned above.
If possible, you can try them in future, and I think PTQ is the most suitable for soundboard than normal sampling piano VSTs. That's why Steigreaber uses it for their transducer GrandPiano.

NathanShirley wrote:

robinlb wrote:

All models of DP with soundboard speakers or transducers will bring similar vibration on keyboard and pedals when playing without headphone. Such as Kawai CA9 series, NV5, K-Aures/2, or Yamaha TA/2.
Pianoteq has nice performance on my old Kawai CA98 than normal sampling VSTs. Although it still won't sound exactly like a real acoustic piano, but feels very alive, likes a real instrument rather than a stereo.

That makes sense, and I haven't played the others, but the AvantGrand did have some sort of vibration mechanism as you could turn the strength of the effect up/down. Now maybe it still did this through speakers...with infrasound?? But I imagine a simple mechanical spinning device would be more cost effective?

Yamaha doesn't seem to give much information on how their "TRS" system actually works: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13143...=25#manual

My friend's experience with the N3X is that TRS is only better than nothing. It can not be compared with soundboard, and the latter can provide real and different vibrations depending on the volume and frequency of the music sound.
But of course, if we want to get vibration when using headphone, we need another independent vibrators for keyboard.

It's been several years since I've played one, and I didn't play any extensively, but I would say the effect was far better than nothing. Could it have been improved? No doubt. But only having experience with real pianos and standard keyboards, it was a very nice improvement on the latter. It also did react to volume and frequency, being much more pronounced in the bass, less so as you moved up, and stronger at greater dynamics/bigger chords. Was the speed of the vibration faster depending on the pitch being played? Possibly not, but I imagine that wouldn't be too difficult to implement.

robinlb wrote:

All models of DP with soundboard speakers or transducers will bring similar vibration on keyboard and pedals when playing without headphone. Such as Kawai CA9 series, NV5, K-Aures/2, or Yamaha TA/2.
Pianoteq has nice performance on my old Kawai CA98 than normal sampling VSTs. Although it still won't sound exactly like a real acoustic piano, but feels very alive, likes a real instrument rather than a stereo.

That makes sense, and I haven't played the others, but the AvantGrand did have some sort of vibration mechanism as you could turn the strength of the effect up/down. Now maybe it still did this through speakers...with infrasound?? But I imagine a simple mechanical spinning device would be more cost effective?

Yamaha doesn't seem to give much information on how their "TRS" system actually works: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13143...=25#manual

My friend's experience with the N3X is that TRS is only better than nothing. It can not be compared with soundboard, and the latter can provide real and different vibrations depending on the volume and frequency of the music sound.
But of course, if we want to get vibration when using headphone, we need another independent vibrators for keyboard.

All models of DP with soundboard speakers or transducers will bring similar vibration on keyboard and pedals when playing without headphone. Such as Kawai CA9 series, NV5, K-Aures/2, or Yamaha TA/2.
Pianoteq has nice performance on my old Kawai CA98 than normal sampling VSTs. Although it still won't sound exactly like a real acoustic piano, but feels very alive, likes a real instrument rather than a stereo.

That makes sense, and I haven't played the others, but the AvantGrand did have some sort of vibration mechanism as you could turn the strength of the effect up/down. Now maybe it still did this through speakers...with infrasound?? But I imagine a simple mechanical spinning device would be more cost effective?

Yamaha doesn't seem to give much information on how their "TRS" system actually works: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/13143...=25#manual

I'm not sure how Yamaha does it, but it might not be particularly sophisticated...perhaps a bit like the vibration mechanism in cell phones, or the "rumble" in video game controllers? I imagine if a few, subtly tuned to mimic piano vibrations, were attached to the inside of the case itself, the vibrations might be enough to transmit up through the keys themselves--particularly while they're being held against the keybed.

I'd definitely like to see that added into higher-end controllers. Although most seem to still need a lot of work on their action first!

How exactly does this tactile feel work in the avante grand?  Could one install a subwoofer directly below the keybed and simply raise or lower volume to adjust it?

My thought was a tiny vibrator under each key that piano vst makers could program somehow?

One thing I find missing from ALL digital piano keyboards [...] is the VIBRATION you can feel through your fingers [...]

AvantGrand N3X has a "actuator"(*) that you can turn on or off just for that.
I added a 10" sub-woofer to my DIY cabinet mainly for that (and A0) - it works, probably not as good as the Yamaha but I feel the vibration on the keyboard and pedals.

I guess you can get a $30 actuator and stuck it to your keyboard no matter of it's size - a second one for the pedals?
I don't know what impact it will have on the amplifier and I'm guessing it would have to be dimmed down.

(*) not sure the correct name of these things - ah, Dayton Audio calls them "Sound Exciter"

It would greatly...I mean GREATLY...increase realism.  This is mostly noticeable when playing chords...not so much with single notes. 

Whenever I play a real grand it's the first thing I notice.  I don't notice the sound as much as the feel...and without this subtle vibration ...it's not the same.  Seems like it could be a simple addition to design a keyboard that would do this.
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Pianoteq 8 Standard
Chord AI - Android App (displays chords)
Kawai VPC1
Real Samick (Stencil) Parlor Grand (5'6")
Windows 11 Laptop
Focusrite 6i6 2nd Gen
Yamaha HS8 Studio Monitors
Carvin PA with 12 inch Speakers
Play mostly 70s titles...Pink Floyd... James Taylor...Bread...Beatles...etc...many Movie Themes